"Since every Rapture passage clearly tells us it is Post-Trib., are you going to ignore these clear passages because you are unable to reconcile what Jesus means about not knowing the "day or Hour"?"
Walter,
I can reconcile what Jesus means about not knowing the day or hour and His coming as a thief with that of His coming and all the cosmic disturbances announcing that coming. I would say it is you instead who is unable to reconcile it to me in order to defend your view. You post the same Scriptures over and over, which is fine, but they do not answer my question or reconcile the seemingly contrary messages that Jesus is speaking of. You cannot reconcile Jesus coming as a thief with Jesus coming preceded by signs that announce His coming, and call them one in the same. It creates a dilemma that leaves one scratching his head wondering which is it? Known or unknown?
In Matthew 24, Jesus tells us of the day and hour of His return, "knoweth no man". He then goes on to give an example of the days of Noah, and compares those days to the coming of the Son of man. Life was as usual. Life toward the end of the Trib and the judgments that are being poured upon the earth and man are anything but normal, especially life as usual. Jesus' Second Coming will not be a time when the people of the earth will be living life as usual. Just as in the days of the Flood, people [those who do not know Jesus] will be caught totally off guard. Jesus compares that to His coming, "ye know not what hour your Lord doth come". A people totally off guard to what is coming their way.
Jesus goes on to speak of two in a field; one taken, one left, two women grinding at the mil; one taken, one left. This is prior to the Son of man coming at an hour you think not. Compare that with the events seen toward the end of the Trib. Who's going to be grinding at a mil? What is there to grind? Joel 1:15 tells us that the day of the Lord is at hand and that the corn is withered, there is no pasture for the cattle. He speaks of fire that has devoured the pastures, and the flame that has burned the trees of the field. These are things seen during the first Trumpet. And yet Joel tells us "Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand". Joel then asks, "Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, yea, joy and gladness from the house of our God?" Think about when the antichrist puts an end to sacrifice and offering, and the subsequent events in the Temple. None of those things are life as usual or centered around normal things like eating, drinking, or getting married as mentioned in Matthew 24 and just prior to a thief in the night coming.
Now compare that to the Second Coming in which the actions of men seen in Joel 2:4-9 take place prior to the cosmic events that herald Jesus return. They're all nuts. They're running to and fro in the city. They climb up on houses. Consider too those plagues and actions of men during the vials, prior to Jesus second coming. You see some disgusting sores upon those who had the mark of the beast, rivers and fresh waters become blood, a great heat from the sun scorches men, and men are blaspheming God as a result. Can one honestly compare any of that to the days of Noah and life, just prior to the Flood? Do you see eating, drinking and marrying going on at this time?
So you have a "life as usual" and you have "a world experiencing the worst calamities ever seen on earth". Jesus says He comes at a time when life is as usual, the days of Noah, life centered around those normal things of eating, drinking and marrying, and during which He will come at an hour you think not. And you have Jesus coming to judge the world and the sinners therein after the Tribulation of those days, and He comes following those signs in the heavens that He describes.
There is no way to make the two events into one event and say Jesus comes as a thief, at an hour and day you know not, when life is as usual, AND, have Jesus come after the Tribulation when life is anything but usual, and at an hour or day that can be pretty much figured out, and in a manner that is not as a thief catching one unaware, but one in which signs precede His coming, where the earth shakes before men, the heavens tremble, the sun and moon become dark, and the stars no longer shine [Joel 2:10]. One is unexpected, and one is positively predicted.
One is when life is as usual, and one is when there is worldwide catastrophe.
So yes, Walter. I have been able to reconcile those seemingly contradictory events and come to the conclusion that there is more than one second coming. There is no other way to reconcile the two. But you my ((brother)) have been unable to answer my question on how YOU reconcile them according to your view.
I would like to get in on this discussion if possible. The problem seems to be with a lack of understanding the scriptures. Let me give you a few quotes and explain what was really being said.
(Quote)In Matthew 24, Jesus tells us of the day and hour of His return, "knoweth no man". He then goes on to give an example of the days of Noah, and compares those days to the coming of the Son of man. Life was as usual. Life toward the end of the Trib and the judgments that are being poured upon the earth and man are anything but normal, especially life as usual. Jesus' Second Coming will not be a time when the people of the earth will be living life as usual. Just as in the days of the Flood, people [those who do not know Jesus] will be caught totally off guard. Jesus compares that to His coming, "ye know not what hour your Lord doth come". A people totally off guard to what is coming their way.
If Jesus meant as normal by the days of Noah, why not just say things would be as normal? That is by no means what was being said. He was trying to warn us that once again, bad angels would be unleashed on earth and be up to their old tricks of having earth women as wives. Paul warned of this when he was talking about keeping a covering over women's heads because of the angels. If you read Revelation, you will see where this all ties together.
When the Anti-Christ first comes, it will be as an angel of light. Meaning everyone will think he is good, remember what Paul said...great lying wonders. He will preform miracles like we have never seen. He will claim to be Jesus and tell everyone that He is here to fly them away, just go get their nfamilies and come on. By deceiving you, you get the mark on your forehead. Doing his work is the mark on the hand.
Jesus said unless I shorten those times, even the elect would be lost. That is some powerful deception, be ready, you will be here.
In the other thread I asked specific questions for you to answer and you said you did so in this post. However you did not answer my questions. Responding to a post is not answering my questions.
You are ignoring the clear passages of scriptures and bringing in philosophical arguments based upon your preconceptions of a Pre-Trib Rapture. You are not going to understand this issue until you have the basics down first. That is why you are unabbel to reconcile anything though you think you have.
You have to take the passages that deal specifically with the Resurrection and Rapture FIRST and interpret them maintaining consistent Hermeneutics before you can come to understand all the other side issues. Everything falls into place AFTER you have the fundamentals down.
1 Thess 5:1-2 tells us WHEN the Resurrection and Rapture occurs.
1 Cor 15:50-54 tells us WHEN the Resurrection and Rapture occurs.
Let me paste them here for you and let me expound upon them a little more.
Does Paul state that we are to be watching for the day of the Lord in 1Thess5?
1Thess 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so THAT THIS DAY should overtake you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 THEREFORE let us not sleep, as others do, BUT LET US WATCH and be sober.
What DAY are WE to be WATCHING for?
1Thess 5:1 BUT concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly THAT the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
Is that not the context?
Does Paul state that the Resurrection and Rapture occurs on the Day of the Lord?
Look carefully of what says in 1Thess5:1-2.
What are the times and seasons that Paul is referring to if not the Resurrection and Rapture in 1Thess4:13-17?
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:
Again, the Resurrection must occur FIRST, prior to the Rapture.
17 THEN we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
So again, what are the "times and seasons" Paul is talking about if not the Resurrection and Rapture?
And... when again did Paul say those things would occur? For you yourselves know perfectly THAT the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
Look at 1Cor 15:50-54
Does not Paul clearly state that the Events we call the Resurrection and Rapture occur WHEN a specific prophesy COMES TO PAST..."Death is swallowed up in Victory"?
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The phrase: "The dead shall be raised incorruptible"... refers to the Resurrection of the bodies of the dead believers in Christ. The phrase: "and we shall be changed", refers to the Rapture", which immediately follows the Resurrection.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54) So WHEN this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, THEN SHALL BE BROUGHT TO PASS the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Do you know WHEN that prophesy occurs?
When you read Isaiah 25:8, what is the context of that passage? Is it not the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom?
Isa 25:5 You will reduce the noise of aliens, As heat in a dry place; As heat in the shadow of a cloud, The song of the terrible ones will be diminished.
6 And in this mountain The LORD of hosts will make for all people A feast of choice pieces, A feast of wines on the lees, Of fat things full of marrow, Of well-refined wines on the lees.
7 And He will destroy on this mountain The surface of the covering cast over all people, And the veil that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death forever, And the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces; The rebuke of His people He will take away from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken.
9 And it will be said in that day: "Behold, this is our God; We have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is the LORD; We have waited for Him; We will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
10 For on this mountain the hand of the LORD will rest, And Moab shall be trampled down under Him, As straw is trampled down for the refuse heap.
11 And He will spread out His hands in their midst As a swimmer reaches out to swim, And He will bring down their pride Together with the trickery of their hands.
12 The fortress of the high fort of your walls He will bring down, lay low, And bring to the ground, down to the dust.
So what is the context or event above? The Millennial Kingdom.
Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
Since Paul says that the Resurrection and Rapture occurs at that time, does that not make it self evident that it is Post-Trib since that is WHEN the Resurrection and Rapture occurs?
Oh let me not forget to mention this.
When you examine Isaiah 24, the discourse is the same and continuous leading into chapter 25, you will notice the Sun and Moon signs.
Isaiah 24:23 Then the MOON shall be confounded, and the SUN ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
This is an interesting passage in not only that it talks about the Lord reigning but also the Sun and Moon signs. Why is this significant? Because the sun and moon signs are the signs that occur AFTER the Tribulation ends and just prior to the 2nd Coming of Christ our Lord. This is also known as "The Day of the Lord".
So Jackie, I would sincerely appreciate that you answer these questions and either concur with my conclusions or else demonstrate clearly where my exegesis is wrong.
It'll probably be on my next day off that I answer your questions. But why is it that I must answer yours and you don't answer mine? And why is it that if it doesn't agree with you, it must be some pre-trib diatribe? True, I am a pretribber, but not all my questions and or studies are based on my view of when the rapture occurs or how I can fit them or use them to support my rapture view. If a non-pretribber were to question the same thing, would you accuse them of being led in the wrong direction by pretrib doctrine?
Anyway, I would appreciate if you could reconcile the differences I pointed out in Jesus' return, with your view. They are differences found in Scripture, not thought up, and not to say who is right or wrong about rapture timing, although in the end it can be used to support it. ;)
:ROFL:Funny thing about Matt. chapter 24. It starts with Jesus talking about the Temple and predicting its destruction. This happened just as He said it would in 70 AD. Jesus then says in verse 34:
34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
Well within 40 years the Temple was destroyed.
So what it comes down to is that you can back up different positions from this chapter.
Notice that he tells that people will be partying at the time of his coming. Yeah, the battle of Armageddon will be a party complete with weddings.
One post trib rapture website has the trib starting at the Feast of the Trumpets and Ending 86 moons later at the Day of Atoinment. He says that the next window for this is 2011.
If his timing is right; what stops the rapture from coming at the Feast of the Trumpets.
In Rev. we see that people in Heaven have crowns, they talk, wave palm branches, go to the marriage feast of the Lamb, etc. but somehow they aren't really there.:rolleyes:
These are my thoughts, hope they help... I don't believe the second coming comes post trib, I guess I'm more mid-trib. I have read Math. 4 and compared that with Revelation between the 6th and 7th seals being opened. Compare and see if you see the similarities. Basically my thoughts are that the things of the tribulation period that will happen prior to the rapture/second coming are things we have already seen but will be on a more slightly higher scale. Such things as famine, earthly disasters, and a height in violence. I do believe that as Christians we will be on "watch" for Christ's return, but we won't know for sure when it will happen and just like in the times of Noah, we'll be going about our daily lives like we do now. Non-believers won't have a clue about whats coming and Christians, even though no one knows the exact time, we will be watching/waiting. Again, I hope this helps.
I believe in pretrib or mid.It is a fact that 144,000 will be taken during the trib.Virgins,so how many raptures are we speaking of here.The trib I was taught was for all unbeleivers.Us chritians would be taught in heaven what we must do.
When the dark ages was here the truth slipped away.When the challenge to theCatholic church came and bibles were printed for the common person it took several hundred years to get too the truth.Much studing to get to know things like what revalations means and the such.
Man...I never knew this was such a widely interpreted belief. I really don't understand how it can be so...interpreted...a lot....
In the days of the flood it was not "business as usual". The whole time Noah was pleading with people to board the ark. Before the doors to the ark were shut...animals were led into the ark, 2 by 2...that must have been a spectacle. Nobody cared, and if they did they were thinking "I still have time to get on". Then an angel closed the door to the ark. Spectacle. For 7 days nothing happened. Then it started to rain for the first time ever. Too late. There are signs that have been happening. Predicted by the bible. Stars falling from heaven, that's happened. Moon turning to blood. Happened. The day turned to night. Happened. Look them up. Unexplained natural phenomena. The bible even says "watch and be ready". "Keep your lamps trimmed and burning".
The Saved being raptured out before the tribulation is a nice thought....but I don't believe thats what the bible says. The righteous are still on the earth when Jesus comes, because the ones that are still alive are caught up into the clouds after the ones that are dead are resurrected. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't make sense. There's probably some other verses that say stuff like "blessed is he that comes to the" whatever day it was...can't remember it. Parable of the 10 virgins. Only 5 were let into the wedding feast, but they were all there waiting for the groom to come. Anyway. Also. The "ruling over unsaved people" doesn't make any sense either...the bible says the wicked are slain when Christ comes. And I just have to say, if you look at these beliefs, the scriptures supporting them are very few. It's like taking one or two verses that you don't understand and building a theology out of it, when there are a bunch of other verses that directly contradict it. Instead of using scripture to interpret scripture, people seem to try and figure out novel ways to reinterpret the bible and ignore the verses that don't agree. I'm probably guilty of doing the same thing, but it's frustrating when I see it, and I think we should always be searching the bible for truth instead of living on our dearly held traditions and interpretations. When you think you have it all figured out is when you are on dangerous ground. Look at the people from the "Great Disappointment". "Jesus is coming tomorrow! We know it for sure!" Oops. I think God used that event to show people just how far off they had gone and to drive them back to the whole word of God instead of relying on their supposed "wisdom". "If we were so wrong about this...what else could we have wrong?!" I just think we should be in a spirit of humility about everything, search the scriptures like you're a new christian...and pray for God to lead you to the truth. I know I don't have it all. Do you?
I will answer your questions after you haven answered my questions and we get the basics down first. Your questions are easy and I have reconciled them before. I think you may have missed them.
Mike,
Your statement that the destruction in 70AD and "This generation will not pass until all these things come to pass", is not laid out properly. First the Disciples asked Jesus more than just about the destruction of the Temple but also about His Second Coming and the END of the Age.
Mat 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
THAT is the context of the Olivet Discourse.
Additionally, since it falls within the criterion of Jesus command to teach all things He taught His disciples privately, It makes it a necessary Church Doctrine for us today as Christians.
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.NKJV
Furthermore:
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
The Gospel has not been preached as yet to every nation in all the world, though we are almost done, but not as yet. So therefore for anyone to interpret 70AD as a fulfillment of Christ's Return in any spiritual form is foolish.
Additionally:
Mat 24:28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
This is a reminder of the Prophesy of Armageddon, which has not occurred either.
So there are still things that has to be seen by US and it is THAT Generation that sees ALL these things that will by no means pass away.
