One of the phrases used in the discussion of the Resurrection and Rapture is used by Paul in 1 Thess 5:
1Thess 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. NKJV
So we see that "The Day of the Lord" comes as a thief. But did Paul make up this term or did he glean it from someone else?
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour THE THIEF would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. NKJV
So we see that Paul did borrow this phrase, this term from Jesus who is the originator of this phrase. So why is this important?
Because Pretribulationists claim that Jesus can come at any moment for the Rapture and they use this phrase as support. Their problem is that they do not consider the CONTEXT of this phrase.
The context is "The Olivet Discourse" in Mat 24 which is concerning....... The SECOND COMING of Christ POST-Tribulational.
And Paul also used this phrase but clearly and irrefutably said that... "The DAY OF THE LORD comes as a thief in the night."
When does the Day of the Lord occur?
Acts 2: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
So the sun and moon signs occur PRIOR to the Day of the Lord.
So when do the sun and moon signs occur?
Mat 24:29 IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
By Jesus placing the "sun and moon signs" as occurring AFTER the Tribulation and the Day of the Lord occurs AFTER the Sun and Moon signs makes it self evident that the Day of the Lord occurs AFTER the Tribulation and not before it.
What this also proves is that the teaching that Jesus can come back at any moment is completely and utterly false. Jesus' return is not imminent. His return follows specific SIGNS He gave us in various scriptures particularly in the Olivet Discourse in Mat 24 & 25.
What does this also prove?
That Jesus' coming as a thief in the night concerns His POST-Tribulational return.
What else does this prove?
That Paul, by calling the Resurrection and Rapture as an event that occurs on the Day of the Lord in 1 Thess 5:1-2 forbids any concept of a Pre-Trib Rapture and only a Post Trib Rapture.
Here is a link to a site that is post-trib rapture oriented. If you go there, you will see that he has a chart of the tribulation period. He bases this chart on one fewer full moons than normal. The trib starts with the Feast of the Trumpets. He feels that this will be the normal yearly Feast coupled with the Jews getting to rebuild the Temple. The trib ends at the Day of Atonement 7 years later. He also puts in a 30 day period where non-believers can repent and be saved. The next time that his chart will work is in the year 2011.
I am on my Blackberry and the area I am in is not good for reception so I will have to respond later when I can whiz through web sites. Meanwhile consider that Jesus fulfilled certain prophecies on certain Feast days on His First Coming so it stands to reason that He will fulfill other prophecies upon His 2nd Coming. One of them will be Yonkipur, Israel's national day of Atonement.He will return on that Day but we don't know what year that will be as yet. I will write more after I get home after 1 AM.
Also consider that just as God created all things in 6 days and rested on the 7th, is symbolic that the Earth will go through 6000 years and then at the beginning of the 7th thousand years Christ will return as HE is our Sabbath. The Early Church also wrote about this as well. It is an interesting thought.
What are your thoughts on my First post in this thread?
I think that as we read the Bible and line up our positions, we run across the old problem. Prophecy can have both a short range fulfilment and also one long range. The virgin will be with child is one. Originally it was fulfilled near its first saying. The word used was maiden. However the scholars that translated the old testament into Greek knew that it was Messianic and they used the word virgin. It can look like Jesus, Paul, John and Peter are saying one thing and then we later realize they meant something else.
The prophecies of the Messiah had both a first time and second time coming. The people were expecting the first time to be like the second coming.
The Bible is non-linear. It will give a short version of what happened and then go into finer detail a few verses or chapter later. Then we have different views of the same thing. One Old Testament prophet may put something down one way and a new Testament writer differently.
Jesus said things that would have gone one way if the people recognized the Messiah and followed him, but another way if they rejected him, which they did.
Lost in the translation hits too. In Acts as put in English we find that a woman says, "... the way of salvation..." But she actually said, ".....a way of salvaiton..." The first resurrection can also be translated as the best resurrection or the foremost resurrection. The translater's beliefs wind up in the text.
I actually study Greek and when John says "the FIRST resurrection", he meant exactly that. Here is also how we know he meant First.
Look at the next verse where he contrasts the First Resurrection with those of the "SECOND" death. John lays out an order of things. He also shows the promise of those who are in the First Resurrection. These are "Blessed and Holy" and "they will be priests of God and Christ and they will reign with Christ for 1000 years". This is the promise given to all Believers in Christ Jesus. Yet it is only those who partake in this specific resurrection that are given this promise. If there were a PRE-Trib Rapture then those are not given this promise and then by necessity would be part of the second death. Therefore because of what John says and the order of things in which he lays them out, we can only have one conclusion and that is when John said it was the First Resurrection, he meant exactly that. Keep in mind also that those of the "Second Death" are Resurrected in the Second Resurrection where they will receive their punishment. There are Two Resurrections, one for those who are in Christ, which includes all the Old Testament Saints and which occurs First and then those who are raised...Resurrected After the 1000 years who are part of the Second Death.
Now consider that Paul clearly stated in 1 Thess 4 that "The dead in Christ will rise FIRST". This shows that there is a Resurrection of the Dead...... PRIOR.... to the Rapture.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
There is no Rapture before the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ.The Resurrection comes first, then the Rapture.
But also remember that Paul, continuing his discourse in 1Thess 5:1-2, he also told us WHEN this event would occur. He called it "The Day of the Lord", which I have previously demonstrated occurs after the Tribulation.
Additionally, in 1 Cor 15:50-54, Paul tells us WHEN the Resurrection and Rapture occurs. He tells us of an Old Testament Prophesy coming to past. "Death is Swallowed up in Victory". That is in Isaiah 25:8 which is what Paul was quoting. That prophesy is fulfilled in the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom. The context of that passage is more than clear on this.
So what we can conclude is that both Paul and John were in harmony and that the Resurrection they both spoke of were the very same one, Post-Tribulational.
Whether he means "first " or "best", etc. the Greek can be more than first. So to figure out what is going on here, I want to look at Rev. leading up to this piont(Rev. Chapt. 20).
In Heaven we find that the marriage of the Lamb takes place in Rev.19:7-10. We are told that, "Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb." Who gets invited? Also, in Rev. Chapters 7 and 15 we have people from the trib. in heaven.
Now in the passages that tell of Christ on earth; we find that certain people come to life(Rev. 20). Elsewhere in the New Testament we find that Christ spoke to the dead. Here is one place:
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
And here's another:
EPH 4:7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8 This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."
EPH 4:9 (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
In reading all of Rev. I find that believers are communicating with The Lord in Heaven before the end of the tribulation.
Here's what I think. In Heaven, bodies are not needed and they are not given out yet. In Rev. 20 the resurrection body is needed now for the Christians to rule with Christ on earth. Later this same new body will be used in the new heaven and a new earth(Rev. 21).
Walter: Did you get a chance to look at that web site yet?
"And Paul also used this phrase but clearly and irrefutably said that... "The DAY OF THE LORD comes as a thief in the night."
When does the Day of the Lord occur?
Acts 2: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
So the sun and moon signs occur PRIOR to the Day of the Lord.
So when do the sun and moon signs occur?
Mat 24:29 IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
By Jesus placing the "sun and moon signs" as occurring AFTER the Tribulation and the Day of the Lord occurs AFTER the Sun and Moon signs makes it self evident that the Day of the Lord occurs AFTER the Tribulation and not before it."
Tell me something... how can Jesus come as a "thief in the night", when that is proceeded by the sun darkened, no light from the moon, the stars falling and heaven being shaken? These are SIGNS. A thief is not a very good thief if he announces his coming with signs, agreed? And to use the verse from my reply to you on another post, how can this verse be applied to your statement above?
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
With the celestial signs occuring before Jesus second coming [and subsequent rapture], how can a Believer think not the hour of His return?
First off we have to understand who does Jesus come as a thief in the night for.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.
Mat 24:44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
So what is Jesus saying here? He is telling us to pay attention and to..."WATCH", because if we are watching we will see Him coming, we will know. Those who are not watching will be caught off guard.
Paul expands upon this.
1Thess 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. NKJV
So what is Paul saying here?
He is saying the same thing as Jesus because he was reminding them of what Jesus said in that we as Christians who are paying attention will not be caught off guard like those who are in darkness shall be.
It is a bad teaching that comes from the Pre-Trib camp that Jesus comes as a thief and they make it a blanket statement not clarifying that Jesus comes as a thief for ...the ungodly, not Christians. Unless of course some Christians are not paying attention.
Also consider something very important about the passage about the thief in the night. Look at the context of where it comes from. Matthew 24, The Olivet Discourse....context being... Christ's Post-Tribulational return.
I looked at the web site and after seeing who wrote it I had a big laugh. I know Gavin Finley. I have discussed things with him in the past on my Pastor's web site many years ago when he had a debate forum. He is a really nice guy and for the most part we are on the same page. I don't agree with everything he writes but for the most part he is on point.
MIKE: The trib starts with the Feast of the Trumpets. He feels that this will be the normal yearly Feast coupled with the Jews getting to rebuild the Temple. The trib ends at the Day of Atonement 7 years later.
WALTER: I agree with this so far.
Here is the link where my Pastor lays out the Feasts of Israel. http://www.pfrs.org/jewish/hr01.html
MIKE: He also puts in a 30 day period where non-believers can repent and be saved. The next time that his chart will work is in the year 2011.
WALTER: I disagree with this. I believe the 30 day difference between the 1260 days which is when Christ returns and the 1290 days, the 30 days difference is the time period where Christ gives out rewards and judgment. I do not believe it is a time being given for repentance. But then this is all speculation as to what those 30 days are all about.
As far as the year 2011. I don't believe that is a date we can rely upon as there is still so much more that has to occur before Christ returns. I do believe we are currently in the time when the Seventh Kingdom (The New World Order) is attempting to be set up but will ultimately fail and fall apart. Clay and Iron don't mix. That is when the Eighth Kingdom will come to be established and that is when the AntiChrist will take power and that is when we enter the last 7 year period. I think we are close and that it will be our generation, but only time will tell. We just need to be about our Father's business in spreading the Gospel and keeping an eye on where we are, watching for the Day of the Lord as Christ and Paul instructed.
MIKE: Whether he means "first " or "best", etc. the Greek can be more than first. So to figure out what is going on here, I want to look at Rev. leading up to this piont(Rev. Chapt. 20).
WALTER: I think it is very important to consider the context of that passage and the fact that John laid out a sequence of two resurrections. One for the Believers and one for the condemned. The FIRST one is for all Believers and the second one occurs after the 1000 year reign.
Considering that all of scripture points to only TWO more resurrections in the future and only one of them is for Believers and that this Resurrection occurs before the Rapture as Paul clearly stated in 1Thess4:16, can only bring us to one conclusion. That John did indeed mean First. Every translation agrees with this as does the Majority Text.
MIKE: In Heaven we find that the marriage of the Lamb takes place in Rev.19:7-10. We are told that, "Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb." Who gets invited? Also, in Rev. Chapters 7 and 15 we have people from the trib. in heaven.
WALTER: No Mike the marriage does not take place in Heaven. Look at the grammar.Let's look a few verse prior.
Rev 19:6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns!
When does Christ reign? When does Christ establish His Kingdom, His Davidic Throne?
7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."
8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9 Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!' " And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God."
So what do we see here? Do we actually see a marriage taking place in Heaven or do we see that the Bride has made herself read for the Marriage?
What do you do with those who are to rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years who suffered and died during the Great Tribulation? Don't they get married all at the same time? Are there two marriages? I don't think so.
Here is the Marriage supper.
Isaiah 24:23 & 25:1,2,6-8
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of Hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
25:1 O Lord, thou art my God; I will exalt thee...
2 For thou hast made a city an heap; of a defenced city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city: it shall never be built....
6 And in this mountain shall the Lord of Hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of morrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.
(KJV)
It is important to note this Feast. It is clearly at the beginning at the Millennial Kingdom. It is also important to note that the phrase in verse (8) "Death is Swallowed up in Victory" is when this is fulfilled and this is "WHEN" Paul says the Resurrection and Rapture occurs in 1 Cor 15:50-54.
54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
MIKE: Now in the passages that tell of Christ on earth; we find that certain people come to life(Rev. 20). Elsewhere in the New Testament we find that Christ spoke to the dead. Here is one place:
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
WALTER: I am not understanding your point here. Please clarify.
The passage in Rev 20 is about the First Resurrection and that those who are killed during the Great Tribulation will be ruling and reigning with Christ for 1000 years.
MIKE: And here's another:
EPH 4:7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8 This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."
EPH 4:9 (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
In reading all of Rev. I find that believers are communicating with The Lord in Heaven before the end of the tribulation.
WALTER: Yes Mike that is true but they have not received their glorified bodies as yet. They have not been Resurrected nor Raptured. These are "The Dead in Christ".
MIKE: Here's what I think. In Heaven, bodies are not needed and they are not given out yet. In Rev. 20 the resurrection body is needed now for the Christians to rule with Christ on earth. Later this same new body will be used in the new heaven and a new earth(Rev. 21).
WALTER: Ok...yes I agree in that we do not need physical bodies in Heaven. However we are promised to get those physical glorified bodies when Christ returns at His second coming. I agree that we will continue to have our new bodies in the New Heaven and Earth but keep in mind that this "New" Heaven and Earth are not New in the sense of brand new but actually refurbished. God will not make a new planet but restore the Earth as He originally intended. This Earth was intended to exist for all eternity.
"First off we have to understand who does Jesus come as a thief in the night for.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.
Mat 24:44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
So what is Jesus saying here? He is telling us to pay attention and to..."WATCH", because if we are watching we will see Him coming, we will know. Those who are not watching will be caught off guard."
Walter, The thing is... Jesus is still telling us the Son of Man is coming at an hour we don't expect
"It is a bad teaching that comes from the Pre-Trib camp that Jesus comes as a thief and they make it a blanket statement not clarifying that Jesus comes as a thief for ...the ungodly, not Christians. Unless of course some Christians are not paying attention."
Okay, so let's say Jesus comes as a thief for the ungodly and not Christians. I can buy that in the sense that they find themselves in the midst of sudden destruction at one point during the Trib. But still.... Jesus is telling US, not the ungodly, that the Son of Man is coming at an hour WE don't expect.
