One of the arguments Pretribulationists make is that since we are not appointed to wrath and the Tribulation is God's wrath then we must be raptured. It seems logical until you ask the right questions and examine the scripture they use regarding "WRATH".
Let's examine that passage.
1Thess 5: 9 for God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. NKJV
Now let's examine the whole chapter and in fact chapter 4:13-18. The context is concerning the events of the Ressurection and Rapture and then continuing his thoughts, Paul clarifies when this Ressurrection and Rapture OCCURS. In chapt.5:1-2 he states with total clarity, that the Ressurrection and Rapture happens on the "DAY" they were already familiar with...."THE DAY OF THE LORD".(DOTL) I have already demonstrated in another tread that the DOTL occurs AFTER the Great Tribulation.SO... When we also look at 1THESS 5 we see the context is all about The DOTL. Nowhere does it say we are exempt from the Tribulation. That is simply a Pretribulationists belief superimposed upon the Thess passage.
Additionally consider that withing this passage Paul told the Thessalonians to be WATCHING for the DOTL and included himself within that context. So if Paul was saying that we are to be WATCHING for that day then he expected to be in the Tribulation in order to WATCH for it.
The Pretrib argument falls apart when you examine the scriptures and pay attention to context and grammar.
Walter can the rapure and ressrection be 2 different things.I am testing you.Do not allow my pretribulation belief change you.I am not like some who will argue in a rude manner.I am just having a little fun here.I want to know what you believe.I have used the sane scriptures tosupport pretrib.Dennis
The Resurrection occurs just immediately PRIOR to the Rapture but both are considered simultaneous events. We don't know how long a separation in time it is whether it is seconds or minutes, etc. Not long I am sure though.
I realize that Pretribbers also use the same scriptures but using them to "claim" a Pre-Trib Rapture and then doing a proper exegesis of them to "prove" it are two different things. Each passage dealing with the "Rapture", when we carefully examine them and exegete them literally, maintaining Hermeneutics, are clearly Post-Trib. Paul the author makes this very clear.
In 1 Thess 4:13-18 Paul describes the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ as occurring FIRST and then the "gathering together" of those who are alive and then in chapter 5:1-2 which we know is merely a continuation of 4, he tells us that the Resurrection and Rapture occurs on the Day of The Lord and that is irrefutably a Post-Trib event as it occurs AFTER the Sun and Moon signs. See Acts 2:20 and then Mat 24:29-31.
Additionally Paul in 1 Cor 15:50-54 tells us when the Resurrection and Rapture occur and then is when an Old Testament prophecy comes to past. Death is Swallowed up in Victory, Isaiah 25:8 and that prophesy clearly occurs at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom. Isaiah 24 places this also after the Sun and Moon signs.
Additionally, John in Rev 20:4-6 tells us that the FIRST RESURRECTION includes all the Saints who died during the Great Tribulation. Since that is the FIRST Resurrection from John's future perspective, it must by necessity be the very same Resurrection in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4. There is no escaping this conclusion.
Furthermore, historically, Christianity has always been Post-Trib up until the late 1700s. It was not until then that this new PRE-Trib Rapture existed. All the Early Church Fathers who wrote about end times were 100% in agreement as to their being only one theological position and that is Post-Trib. and two of these men were the direct disciples of John the Apostle himself.
So since Jesus only taught a POST-Trib. Resurrection and Rapture and commanded His Apostles to teach only what He directly taught them, and they were teaching this before Paul came on the scene, and Paul clearly taught a Post-Trib Resurrection and Rapture, then please show me where the PRE-Trib. Rapture was first introduced. :bouncy:
You may not realize this but your questions are based upon the philosophy of Pretribulationism. In other words they are based upon the ideas and concepts of the Straw man they have erected.
Let's examine the wrath issue again. Why does the Tribulation have to be God's wrath? Does not Satan pour out his wrath upon Christians?
Rev 12:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.
14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.
16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. NKJV
Who has the testimony of Jesus Christ? Christians do and only Christians do. Who does Satan persecute? Christians.
Did God remove the Hebrews in Egypt when He poured out His wrath upon the Egyptians or did He merely protect them through it? If God were to pour out His wrath upon the whole world is He...God Almighty not capable of protecting us from it without removing us from the Earth?
If you look in Revelation when God brings judgment, have you noticed upon "WHOM" He brings that judgment or wrath upon? He pours it upon the throne of the AntiChrist and those who take the Mark of the Beast. He does not pour it upon everyone. He is selective.
But let's re-examine the passage in question.
1Thess 5: 9 for God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. NKJV
What is the context of this passage? If you miss this you miss the meaning and application and also what it does not apply to.
1Thess 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. NKJV
Ok so we the context is concerning a very special day ... "The Day of the Lord". The Day of the Lord occurs AFTER the Great Tribulation. Notice what Paul said in this same passage concerning that Day.
1Thess 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
WHY won't that Day overtake them?
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, BUT LET US WATCH and be sober. NKJV
Paul said: "BUT LET US WATCH" (CAPS mine)
Watch for what?" The Day of the Lord". Paul included himself within the context of being here to WATCH for that Day. This means we cannot be Raptured before this.
WHY?
Because Paul called the Resurrection and Rapture an event that occurs on The Day of The Lord. In chapter 4:13-17, Paul described the events that we call "The Resurrection and Rapture" and since Paul continuing with his discourse, in chapter 5:1-2 he then called THAT event as something he reminded his readers about in verse 2. 1Thess 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so comes as a thief in the night.
Understanding what and when the Day of The Lord is, is critical to understanding end time eschatology.
Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
So...when does the Sun and Moon signs occur?
Mat 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. NKJV
This is when the Day of the Lord occurs and this is when the Resurrection and Rapture occurs.
I hope this helped and if it didn't then please let me know. It is important to not get caught up in philosophical parameters but stick with the clear teachings of the Scriptures.
Walter here is the challenge.We read the same verse and see something different.
When Luther started the Luthern church,he read some of the same verses.In that day they taught that the church was the nation of Israel in revelations.Luther had his errors and was very anti-semitic.This reflected his understanding.
I was once a Luthern.They still taught this in the 1980s.
However,the nation of Israel is back.It is Israel that gods hides from the anti-christ at petra,not the church.
So, post tribulation would have been taught because the church believed they were Israel.Not true,We are the church and Israel is saved in the tribulation.
How long is a day?Gods day and ours is different.
In the refernece to this,
sometimes people will say in that day things were harder.
Not 24 hours, but a period of time.
is the day of the lard 24 hours or 7 years?
You assumed the day of the lord is 24 hours.
It could be a refernece to a period of future events, not 1 day but a period of day.
Example again,In his day Hitler ruled germany.
See my point Walter.Hitler ruled for12 years.
How many years could the Day of the lord last?
Is this a good challenge?Then the rapture could happen pretrib,right?
Yes Dennis, but regardless of how long the Day of the Lord is, it does not begin until After the Sun and Moon signs occur which is After the Great Tribulation.
Pretribulationism trys to extend the DOTL to include the Tribulation. This way they can reconcile the 1 Thess passage where Paul clearly calls the Resurrection and Rapture as events occurring on the Day of the Lord. The problem with there claims is that the scriptures forbid any possibility of the DOTL overlapping or including any of the Tribulation.
Acts 2: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
This clearly demonstrates that the Day of the Lord occurs AFTER the Sun and Moon signs. So when do those signs occur?
Mat 24:29 Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. NKJV
So it is more than clear and absolutely irrefutable that the Sun and Moon signs occur after the Tribulation and therefore makes the Day of the Lord an event that occurs after the Tribulation.
Additionally Dennis, Zechariah says soemthing that does support the DOTL as being one literal day.
Zec 14:7 It shall be ONE DAY Which is known to the LORD Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light.
Also,
Isaiah 2:17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
This is an exclusive statement. Since the Anti-christ and the False Idol are worshiped during the Great Tribulation, that would prohibit the Day of The Lord from being included in any time period prior to the end of the Tribulation since "the Lord ALONE will be exalted in that day"!
Jews are being saved today as well. The Traditional Dispensational Theology that is taught in most seminaries today is incorrect. They separated Israel from the Church in order to say there is a Pre Trib Rapture. There is only one body of believers. One Church made up of Jews and Gentiles. There is no separation. This would be a very long discussion and I am limited in time to go into this. However there is a very good source for this if you want to get into the understanding of the different forms of Dispensational Theology.
