Was Jesus wrong about nobody knowing when he will return? If the rapture doesn't happen before the tribulation, then he may be wrong.
THE RAPTURE:
The word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible. The word "Trinity" doesn't either. We use these two words to talk about Biblical facts without giving the long version. The rapture is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18. Continue on into Chapter 5. In verse 9 we are told that God hasn't destined us for wrath. The Tribulation is a period of wrath for those who want to do evil and reject God and follow Satan. In reading the Book of Revelation, you will find that in chapters 1-3 the Church and Churches are the main topics. In the Bible, prophecy can have a meaning for the present and also the future. The Church in Laodicea (3:14-22) also represents Christainity today. Many churches preach stuff that is not in the Bible. It is a "feel good" message. Notice that in Chapters 4-22:16, the words church and churches are not used. That is because chap. 4 starts by showing us the time of the rapture. In 2 Thessalonians Chap. 2 the Anti-Christ is talked about. In verses 6-7 we are told that he will not be revealed until the restrainer is taken out of the way. This is The Holy Spirit, who works to bring people to the Lord. See John 16:8. The Holy Spirit leaves with the Church. Then the world can do all that it wants. Remember that Jesus said that no one knows the day and hour of his return. However, if the rapture doesn't come just before the tribulation then he will be wrong. In Daniel 12, Daniel is told about the end. In verse 11, he learns that from the time that the abomination of desolation is set up; there will 1,290 days until the end. This refers to the middle of the tribulation when the Anti-Christ enters the Temple in Jerusalem and sets up his image for all to worship. When that happens, just start counting the days and you will know when Jesus is to return. If the Church is removed at the middle of the tribulation, then the same thing applys; we can figure out when the Lord is coming. Also, if the rapture comes at the end of the tribulation, then they will be nobody to populate the earth during the 1,000 years reign of Christ on earth. The world will be populated during that time and children will be born. Only believers will enter this kingdom. resurrected believers will rule with Christ during this time.
First off Jesus never taught a Pre-Tribulation Rapture and every Pre-Trib. Rapture theorist knows this. Their premise is based upon Paul having a special revelation from God of a secret rapture. However when one investigates the words of Paul we see the same teachings of Jesus in that there is only one more coming of Christ and that is the only time when there will be a Resurrection and Rapture. So let's examine the passage you mentioned.
1Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
In other words we cannot be raptured before the dead in Christ are Resurrected.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:
Again, the Resurrection must occur FIRST, prior to the Rapture.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
As a side note please notice that verse 17 says we will always be with the Lord, but it does not say WHERE that will be. The verse does NOT say Jesus goes to Heaven as some Pre-Tribbers claim. It merely states that we will simply be with Him. The Grammar does not allow us to say where Jesus goes in this verse.
As we can see above, Paul is talking about the "Resurrection and Rapture" of Christians. He does not say when this occurs but is merely describing the events and their sequence, except that he does say it occurs AFTER Jesus leaves Heaven. Then Paul CONTINUES the same topic in the following verses. I say he continues because Paul uses the conjunctive word "BUT".
1Thess 5:1 BUT of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that...
.... THE DAY OF THE LORD... so cometh as a thief in the night.
In 1 Thess.5:1 Paul says that it is not necessary to explain to them as to the "Times and seasons". The times and seasons he is referring to is what he just finished talking about in chapter 4. The Resurrection and Rapture. He then goes on in verse 2 and reminds them that this event is something they were already familiar with and called the events of chapter 4, "The Day of the Lord".
So WHEN is the Day of The Lord?
Isa 2:17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
This is an exclusive statement. Since the Anti-christ and the False Idol are worshiped during the Great Tribulation, that would prohibit the Day of The Lord from being included in any time period prior to the end of the Tribulation since "the Lord ALONE will be exalted in that day"!
The Day of the Lord is a prophetic event that has never occurred as yet in history. Every where in scripture where it is mentioned it is always in a future tense. Additionally there is only one event called "The Day of the Lord". However there are other phrases given that represent the same event such as Day of Christ, Day of Jesus Christ, Day of God. This event is usually associated with Armageddon, judgment and wrath but the main event that it is associated or linked to is the "Sun and Moon" signs that occur after the Tribulation as we will see below.[see: Isa. 13:6-13, Joel 3:9-17, Zech. 14]. This is exactly what Revelation 19 records as the "battle of Armageddon."
Many of those in the Pre-Trib. camp promote the idea that the Day of the Lord includes the Tribulation period. This allows them to reconcile 1 Thessalonians 5 with pre-tribulationism, since Paul instructed believers to be watching for the "Day of the Lord," [1 Thess. 5:1-6]. If the "Day of the Lord" does comes after the tribulation, as every Old Testament occurrence indicates, then Christians must still be here at the end of the tribulation in order to be watching for that day.
Much has been written by pre-tribulationists trying to stretch the Day of the Lord forward to include the entire tribulation and pre-trib rapture. Comparisons of similar themes, such as wrath, judgment, etc. have been offered as evidence. Yet, absolutely no one has been able to provide any biblical support making them synonymous. None of the Old Testament passages support this conclusion. It comes only from a preconceived assumption of a pre-trib rapture superimposed on the Thessalonian passage. Their theory is a product of reverse engineering of the Scriptures in order to get the desired outcome rather than applying sound principles of interpretation. The fact is, there are definite biblical passages that totally and clearly forbid the "Day of the Lord" from overlapping the tribulation. The two are mutually exclusive.
In the book of Acts, the apostle Peter quotes the Prophet Joel with regards to end time events that were starting to occur on Pentecost that day.
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
So let's put all this together in sequence.
First, Jesus says in Matt 24:29 that AFTER the Tribulation ends then the Sun and moon signs occur.
Second: Joel and Peter state that the sun and moon signs occur BEFORE the Day of the Lord occurs.
Third: Paul calls The Resurrection and Rapture The Day of the Lord and that clearly occurs AFTER the Tribulation. Therefore the Resurrection and Rapture must occur AFTER the Great Tribulation. If the principles of the Historical, Grammatical and Literal Hermeneutic are followed consistently then the Scriptures prohibit any other interpretation without doing violence to God's Holy Word.
Hi Walter,Just a few thoughts to go along with the verses you quoted,In Rev.3:10 Jesus telling the Philadelphia Church Since you have kept my command to endure patiently,I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live upon the earth,And how will God do that?In Rev.12:7 And there was war in heaven and Michael and His Angels faught against the dragon and the dragon and his angels faught back,But he was not strong enough and they lost their place in heaven,The great dragon was hurled down-that ancient serpent called the devel or Satan,who leads the whole world astray,He was hurled to the earth and his angels with him,Verse 13,When the dragon saw he had been hurled to the earth,he pursued the woman {Church}who had given birth to the Male Child{Christ]
Verse 14,The woman {Church} was given the two wings of a great eagle {Modern Jet airliner?} so she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert,{A desert is on earth} where she would be taken care off for a time,times and half a time {3 and one half years} out of the serpents reach,
Verse 15, Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, {maybe an army?} to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrant,
Verse 16,But the earth helped the woman by opening it's mouth and swalling the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth,
Yeah, I don't believe Jesus comes until after the tribulation. That doesn't necessarily mean God's people will be suffering the wrath of God. I think it'll be like in the days of Egypt. The plagues fell on the Egyptians and passed by the Israelites...
And I believe the 1290 day/year prophecy ended in 1844. I believe God is judging His people and Jesus is acting as our High Priest, offering atonement for our sins. When that is over, then Jesus will come. I've always found it interesting that the Earth is around 6,000 years old according to the bible...and I believe soon there will be a 1,000 year rest in heaven after Jesus comes. "A day with the Lord is as a thousand years". A Godly week!:goofball:
2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
"When the dragon saw he had been hurled to the earth,he pursued the woman {Church}who had given birth to the Male Child{Christ]"
Blueyes,
How can the Church be the one to give birth to Christ? Christ came first, the Church followed. Makes no sense to say the Church birthed Christ.
The trib, or Daniel's 70th week is a time set aside for Israel, not the Church. Israel is the woman who gave birth to the male child [Christ].
"The woman {Church} was given the two wings of a great eagle {Modern Jet airliner?} so she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert,{A desert is on earth} where she would be taken care off for a time,times and half a time {3 and one half years} out of the serpents reach"
If this is the Church being spoken of, how does the postie [my term of endearment for post-tribbers :glow: ] reconcile that with their belief that there are those of the Church that suffer at the hand of the AC? And how can the entire Church board a jet and fly to the desert? But let's just say the entire Church boards a jet to some desert or deserts somewhere on the earth. For what purpose? Don't posties believe the Church is to remain during the trib to be a witness?
"Yeah, I don't believe Jesus comes until after the tribulation. That doesn't necessarily mean God's people will be suffering the wrath of God. I think it'll be like in the days of Egypt. The plagues fell on the Egyptians and passed by the Israelites..."
Just curious... Do you believe the wrath of God is only displayed at the end of the Trib?
I wish this forum had a quote feature. Anyway, you said-
"Joel and Peter state that the sun and moon signs occur BEFORE the Day of the Lord occurs."
Paul said-
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1 Thess 5:2-3
If the day of the Lord included only that day at the end of the Trib, how can the Lord come as a thief in the night, if the celestial signs herald His return before that day? A noisy thief? :laugh:
Where do you place "peace and safety" in your timeline?
Uh....nope? The tribulation is part of the wrath of God...Jesus comes at the end of the tribulation. When He comes there's a little more wrath when He destroys the wicked with "the brightness of His coming"...and then there's some more wrath, after the thousand years in heaven, when the wicked are judged/punished.
"Uh....nope? The tribulation is part of the wrath of God...Jesus comes at the end of the tribulation. When He comes there's a little more wrath when He destroys the wicked with "the brightness of His coming"...and then there's some more wrath, after the thousand years in heaven, when the wicked are judged/punished."
DontHitThatMark,
I agree with what you're saying. My question then is... if we are not appointed to wrath, and the Trib is part of the wrath of God, what are we [born-again Believers] doing in the Trib? Why are we subjected to wrath by being in it?
