What many Christians do not realize about the PRE-Tribulation Rapture is that it is a NEW theology that came into being in the late 1700s based upon a dream by a young Scottish lass named Margaret McDonald who was from the hereticle group known as the Irvinites. John Nelson Darby learned of this "deam" and later interpreted it as a new revelation from God, a hiden mystery. So he is the inventer of this new belief and promoted it back in 1835AD.Prior to this time, no one ever taught such a belief. The Church through out history has always been POST-Trib. There is not one scripture that supports this sperious belief. When we examine God's Word we can clearly see only one future Resurrection and Rapture and they are After the Great Tribulation. That is called POST-Tribulation Rapture. Let's examine a couple of scriptures that when properly exegeted we can see which belief it supports.
1 Corinthians 15: 50-54
Below is one of the key main Resurrection and Rapture passages. Notice the context in verse 50. The Kingdom of God. Now the Kingdom we all know is not physically established on Earth until Christ returns AFTER the Great Tribulation. This is where He sets up His Kingdom on Earth, forever. This is part of the context.
1Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Why are we going to be changed? Because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God".
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The phrase: The dead shall be raised incorruptible refers to the Resurrection of the bodies of the dead believers in Christ. The phrase: "and we shall be changed, refers to the Rapture", which immediately follows the Resurrection.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54) So... WHEN... this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, THEN SHALL BE BROUGHT TO PASS...the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory".
The phrase: "Death is swallowed up in victory", is an Old Testament prophesy found in Isaiah 25:8
Notice that Paul tells us WHEN the resurrection and Rapture will occur. When an Old Testament passage comes to past. This is where we must look to Isaiah 25:8. But before you do, it would be good to read all of chapter 24 and then 25 to get the context. In summary, chapter 24 ends with a great earthquake and the... "Sun and Moon".... signs occuring and then the entire context of Isaiah 25 is the beginning of the establishment of the Kingdom of Christ here on Earth, which we know occurs AFTER the Great Tribulation. Also notice that God... "will wipe away all tears from off ALL faces"..... There is no question as to the timing of the Rapture here. It is clearly Post-Tribulational.
Isaiah 25:8 "He will swallow up death in victory"; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
When does God wipe away ALL tears from off ALL faces?
After Christ returns which is after the Great Tribulation where He sets up His Kingdom here on Earth. Paul has clearly told us that the future Resurrection AND Rapture occurs AFTER the Tribulation.
One more important point I will add to this is concerning Isaiah 24. Isaiah 25 follows 24 in proper sequence.
Isaiah 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
This is an interesting passage in not only that it talks about the Lord reigning but also the Sun and Moon signs.
Why is this significant?
Because the sun and moon signs are the signs that occur AFTER the Tribulation ends and just prior to the 2nd Coming of Christ our Lord. This is also known as "The Day of the Lord".
Acts 2: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,... BEFORE... that great and notable day of the Lord come:
How do we know this is AFTER the great Tribulation? Let's see when Jesus places this event.
Mat 24:29 Immediately... AFTER...the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
So as we can see, all the passages above speak very clearly as the Resurrection AND the Rapture occuring AFTER the Great Tribulation, proving once again that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a seriously False Doctrine / Teaching and that the Post-Tribulation/Pre-Millennial Rapture is the only correct Biblical position.
Actually, what you are teaching is incorrect, but I won't agree with you. I'll just keep praying that I be counted worthy to escape the things that are coming because GOD has not appointed us to wrath. I'll keep watching because He's coming as a thief in the night. Just like Noah, I plan to be in the ark before the flood comes. You can stay here if you want to, but living on earth during the Great Tribulation is definitely not one of the desires of my heart!
If you are going to say someone is incorrect then it would be good if you could "prove it" with properly exegeted scriptures or demonstrate where I am wrong. Opinions concerning theology don't carry any weight unless they can be substantiated by clear scriptures.
You said and I quote:
"Walter,
"Actually, what you are teaching is incorrect, but I won't agree with you. I'll just keep praying that I be counted worthy to escape the things that are coming because GOD has not appointed us to wrath. I'll keep watching because He's coming as a thief in the night. Just like Noah, I plan to be in the ark before the flood comes. You can stay here if you want to, but living on earth during the Great Tribulation is definitely not one of the desires of my heart! "
Let's examine some things you said. By the way when I use BOLD CAPS I am not shouting but using it for emphasis because we do not have the ability to use different size fonts and colors when typing. :)
Regarding the example of Noah.
Do you know who and where this originated?
Jesus was talking about this in Matthew 24 and it is not some example of any kind of a "Rapture". The context of Matthew 24 is all about the signs prior to His SECOND COMING AFTER the Great Tribulation. THAT is the context so you cannot take the context of His POST-Tribulation coming and make it into an example of another coming prior to this one. That is just simply bad exegesis.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
Mat 24:39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. NKJV
Jesus is simply letting us know that prior to His SECOND Coming that things will going on as usual.
You also said: "God has not appointed us to wrath" as if that is suppose to mean there must be a Pre-Trib Rapture because God pours out some of His wrath during the Tribulation and we are promised to not be receipients of His wrath.
Again this is simply bad interpretation of scripture and you are parrotting what these False Teachers claim. Let's examine this and the passage they get it from.
First off this quote comes from 1 Thess 5 which is simply a continuation of the same conversation Paul is giving in chapter 4. I do hope you realize that in the original Greek texts there are no chapters listed.
Paul had just been describing the Sceond coming of Christ in chapter 4 of 1 Thess. He talks about the DEAD in Christ being resurrected FIRST and then the Rapture following immediately after. When we get to 1 Thess 5 verse 1 we see an important word...."BUT" which demonstrates grammatically that this is a continuation of chapter 4.
1Thes 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
Here Paul is stating that there is no need to write them about the events he just finished describing in chapt.4, the Resurrection and Rapture. WHY? The next verse explains it.
1Thes 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.NKJV
Paul just reminded them of an event they were already familiar with, called..."The Day of the Lord". He just called the events of chapter 4...."The Day of the Lord". Because he did this he clearly and irrefutably placed those events AFTER the Tribulation. WHY? Because "The Day of the Lord" is a future event that occurs AFTER the "Sun and moon" signs given by Christ in Mat 24:29, Peter also talked about it in Acts 2:20. SO....the context of this chapter is all about Christ POST-Tribulation coming. But let's continue.
1Thes 5:3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
Paul just said that we as Christians are not in darkness so that THIS DAY should not overtake us as a thief.
Do you know where Paul got this saying from? Go back first to verse 2. Paul said..."The day of the Lord" so comes like a thief in the night. When is the Day of the Lord? AFTER the Sun and moon signs.
Act 2:20 THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE COMING OF THE GREAT AND AWESOME DAY OF THE LORD.
When do the sun and moon signs occur? AFTER the Tribulation.
Mat 24:29 "Immediately... AFTER...the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
So let's also look at the phrase thief in the night and where Paul got it from.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the THIEF would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. NKJV
Notice that it is Jesus who first originated this phrase about the thief and notice the context. Matt 24 is about what? Christ's SECOND Coming AFTER the Tribulation. Let's continue.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
Notice Paul's use of first person plural. He included himself with those who are suppose to be WATCHING for "the Day of the Lord" so he expected to be here during the tribulation in order to watch for THAT day.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, NKJV
Is Paul telling us we are going to escape the Tribulation? How can he have even implied it when everything he said is clearly talking about Christ's second coming? Do we take verse 9 out of context and try to nulify everything he previously said? Of course not. We just need to look at what he is saying and NOT take it out of it's CONTEXT. We as Christians are spared the wrath of God because we are....saved. So is the Tribulation the wrath of God and do we necessarily have to be removed from the Earth in order for God to shield us?
Did God remove the nation of Israel out of Egypt when He poured out His wrath upon Egypt or did God supernaturally shield them somehow? What little faith Christians have in that they don't realize that God can protect them through anything if that is His will.
It is interesting to note that the bulk of God's wrath during the tribulation is selective. God specifically targets the throne of the Anti-Christ and those who take the "mark of the beast". Study Revelation and you will see.
Everything I wrote above is the consistent teaching of God's Holy Word and also the consistent and most ancient of teachings throughout Church history.
This will be my last reply to you, Walter.I refuse to be in an argument or debate over when exactly Christ will come for his Church.I'll just join Strawberi and "be ready'!
2 Timothy----- But foolish and unlearned questions avoid,knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive;but be gentle unto all men,apt to teach,patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil ,who are taken captive by him at his will.
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God,For it is written, HE TAKETH THE WISE IN THEIR OWN CRAFTINESS. And again, THE LORD KNOWETH THE THOUGHTS OF THE WISE, THAT THEY ARE VAIN.(1 Corinthians-3:19;20)
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
You said you are "still praying for me". Thanks but what specifically are you praying for me for especially since I didn't ask for your prayers? You don't know what is on my heart do you? Additionally the scriptures you presented to me seem a little smug . Was that your intention? Why did you choose to present those particular scriptures Deborah? Was that an veiled attack to imply that I am foolish and do not have God's wisdom in this area? Gee...I hope that is not the case but I don't see any other logical explantion.
I am not arguing anything with you Deborah. This particular board we are on is for Bible discussions is it not? Discussions can cause friction but just like the scripture says..."As iron sharpens iron so does one man sharpen another". The sharpening process requires some friction and sometimes it can even hurt but if a person has a teachable spirit they can handle it and will in fact even appreciate it in time.
Do you normally stop discussing an issue with someone when they disagree with you and can prove their position and refute yours? Is that a teachable spirit?
2Tim 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. NKJV
Deborah, I am just explaning what God's word teaches and what has been consistently taught throughout church History. The 2nd Coming of Christ is part of the Gospel message and we are required to teach it. Matthew 28:19-20 makes it abundantly clear that we are commanded to teach everything that Christ specifically taught the Apostles.
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe ALL things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. NKJV
If we are to be disciples of and for Christ, then we must know fundamental doctrines and the 2nd Coming of Christ, which is when the Resurrection and Rapture occur is part of what Jesus taught the Apostles. No where did Jesus ever teach a Pre-Trib Rapture. Paul didn't either.
It has nothing to do with the topic but the spirit of the topic. If you have reviewed 1Cor. 13 you will understand where I am coming from if the heart is open...When things are discussed with love then the outcome will not be misinterpreted or offensive. It also states that we now see through a glass darkly but all will be revealed when it is time.
It's not about whether you or I are right or wrong. Bottom line, it's about making it and if you are living right then however it manifests itself will be o.k. because you will have made you calling and election sure.
Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib... Doesn't matter for salvation, knowing Jesus as our Savior, Lord, payment for our transgressions is the essential.
I believe in being ready today with an oil filled lamp. I am not promised any tomorrows. I may not live long enough so, why bother. If I do live long enough, God is going to do what, where, when, how, who etc. according to His plan not any of our theological interpretations. I believe in being very cautious about following the doctrines (theology) of any denomination or person where they are not directly quoting the Word but releasing interpretations and extra meanings.
I prefer a pre-trib because of His promise to not experience the wrath and honestly, my flesh doesn't want to suffer, plus I am not sure my faith would stand strong especially if my children would be threatened.
Personally, I believe it also, could be a partial rapture of just the church of Philadelphia (Rev 3:10)
> The one thing I know for sure is I don't know for sure<
"Knowledge puffeth up!" right?
Religious pride and a know it all attitude is what kept the Pharisees and Saducees from recognizing Jesus. They had it all figured out at the first coming based on their interpretations.... Ouch, look how that turned out for them. The Gospel was preached to and received by Drunkards and harlots. I am certain no one on earth knows the exact plan for the rapture.
Humility, meekness, ackowledgement of just having an opinion but possibly wrong is where I live. My heart goes out to the religous amongst us, I fear and pray for your souls. Right after: praying its me oh LORD standing in the need of prayer. Believe me, I write this in tremendous humility, guarding my heart from the insidiousness of 'pride', least I fall.
Be careful, be cautious of the "spirit we are of" . Walk in love. Walk in humility. Walk in the Spirit" Let us not think more highly of ourselves (or denominations, doctrines) then we aught.
Let us not be easily offended but love one another?
I appreciate your post and I by no means am a "no it all" nor is my spirit one not of love. As a former Police Officer I tend to write more direct and as such can across with authority.
I do find it interesting that throughout the years of many bible discusions, when the Rapture issue comes up, thoswe who are unable to defend their position and or are proven to be incorrect or just plain don't know, take the road of saying it doesn't matter because it has nothing to do with salvation. I disagree from a certain perspective. Please consider the following.
1) Jesus commanded that we teach ALL things whatsoever He taught the Apostles.
2) If we love Jesus He ssaid we would obey Him
3) Jesus taught about His POST-Trib Pre-Mill coming which includes the Resurrection and Rapture.
4) Jesus NEVER taught a Pre-Trib Rapture.
5) Jesus taught His disciples privitely concerning His POST Trib coming and as such it is part of the Gospel we are commanded to teach.
So how is that not important?
Additionally,...regarding it's effect on salvation. Suppose a person who has believed in the Pre-Trib Rapture and they are convinced that it is true but then the Tribulation hits and now they are forced to make a life altering decision. To take the Mark of the Beast or let her family and herself starve and also be persecuted and even beheaded. Image how their Faith will be shaken and possibly so badly that they will question everything about Christianity they were taught and even forsake their faith in Christ and commit Apostasy. Jesus Himself said that the majority of Christians are not going to make it.
Mat 24:12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
The word "love" here is the Greek word "AGAPE" which is has to do with the love of God and each other. Jesus said it will wax cold.
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. NKJV
Our faith as a Christian is conditional upon it's endurance all the way to the end. When persecution hits us and it will, our faith will tested like never before. God has never promised us to be spared persecution and the Tribulation is more about Satan's wrath against Christians.
Paul said there would be a major Falling Away of Christians from the Faith in the last days. 2 Thess 2:1-3.
2Thess 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
The phrase "Falling Away" coems from the Greek word Apostasia which is the feminin form of Apostasion which is in the neuter. The words means to divorce from one's faith if you will. According to Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, "Apostasy" is defined as
"the determined willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian Believer [Heb. 10:26-29; John 15:22]. This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance."
The nature of apostasy requires that one be a believer first, then turn away from God. This is a sin that only a true Christian can make. A non-believer cannot commit this sin.
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? NKJV
Even Paul taught eschatology which proves again that it is part of the Gospel we are commanded to teach.
Christians are ill prepared for what is coming ahead. Satan is attacking on all fronts and setting Christians up for a big fall.
So as you can see a Christian's salvation can be adversely affected to the point of forfeiting their salvation for all eternity should they fall under that scenario.
Here are some really good things to consider. This is something my friend wrote and it's on his web site.Please read this carefully and consider all that has be said here and above.
"WHY IT MATTERS WHAT YOU BELIEVE
In contemporary western Christianity, post-tribbers are looked upon with pity and suspicion. Some think we have a "martyr complex." Others think we are just troublemakers, wanting to rock the boat. Post-tribulationism just doesn't seem to fit in with the prosperous lifestyles of contemporary western Christianity. The lack of real persecution and hardship has led many to assume that this is the normal Christian life. But, according to Scripture, persecution, tribulation, and hardship, is the real "normal" Christian experience. The comfort western Christians have enjoyed for the last few generations is an anomaly that will soon come to an end. The theological "comfort zones" we have constructed around this anomaly are about to come crashing down.
For those who are honestly considering the various views of the rapture timing, and are open to God's leading regarding this issue, there is plenty of opposition ahead for you. The "rapture question" has been a hot potato issue in the recent past. In some cases, splitting churches. Christians who have abandoned the pre-trib view and been the least bit vocal about it have often found themselves being offered the "right foot of fellowship." Many pastors who have abandoned pre-trib have lost their churches, and missionaries have been abandoned by their mission boards and supporting churches because of their switch to the post-trib view. So, if you have no tolerance for hardship, you had better stop here. If you've got the guts to face the truth head on no matter what it is, then please continue.
Some say it really doesn't matter if Jesus is coming before or after the tribulation, as long as we are "ready." They think we should all just agree to disagree, and love one another. But, "ready" is a relative term! It begs the question, "ready for what?" There is a huge difference between being ready to be gently whisked away to heaven on a pillow, and being ready to become a martyr at the hands of Antichrist! Is surface harmony worth the risk of huge numbers of believers being caught totally unprepared spiritually, emotionally, and physically? What about the "many" believers whom Jesus mentioned in Matt. 24:9-13 who would fall away when the deception and persecution of the last days arrives? If Jesus' coming is several decades away, then perhaps the rapture debate is not all that critical. But, if Jesus is coming soon as the signs seem to indicate, one's views on the timing of the rapture are crucial to being prepared to be an overcomer in the difficult days before His coming.
Knowledge of what lies ahead motivates people to prepare. A rookie soldier, who knows he is about to be shipped to the front lines in a brutal war, will have a much different attitude about basic training than a new recruit who joined up to get a free education and a pension! The soldier who is about to engage the enemy knows his training may mean the difference between life and death. He learns survival techniques; he gets physically fit; he learns his weapons inside and out; he makes sure his weapons are in good working order; through countless hours of practice he becomes a marksman. He also prepares himself mentally for combat and the possibility of being a POW. His objective is clear; he is fully equipped; and he is mentally focused on getting the job done and coming home in one piece! On the other hand, the new peace-time novice, with big ideas of a comfortable career, could have a ho-hum attitude about basic training. If he is unexpectedly thrust into a fierce battle, he will find himself woefully unprepared. While staring down the barrel of the enemy's rifle is not the time to be fumbling around for your weapon's instruction manual. He might just conclude that this is not what he signed up for!
If it really doesn't matter what we believe about the last days, why did God devote such a large portion of His Word to end-time prophecy? Is it just filler material? Is it for intellectual entertainment? The answer is really quite simple. Prophecy was intended to provide the kind of motivation needed to turn flabby pew-potatoes into Christian soldiers. This website is an introduction to "basic training" for Christians, alerting them of the coming trials we will soon face in time to prepare themselves and their families spiritually and emotionally, and perhaps even physically at the proper time. And don't kid yourselves about your own or your family's ability to easily digest the emotional implications. Without strong spiritual character first, Christians who live at relative ease in the western world often react badly to the idea that they may soon face the Antichrist, and all the venom that hell can dish out on God's children.
I sincerely hope and pray that perhaps you might reconsider the importance of this issue.
I wasn't sensing authority but a harshness similiar to what went on between the pharisees and the saducees about the resurrection. I can truly appreciate your doctrinal position. I felt you insulted Deborah and Strawberri on this issue and Jeanne on the post of God's name calling her "unteachable" .
Brother? right?
I beseech you to hear what the Spirit might be saying to you through 3 different women. It has to do with tone, not just because we don't agree. It has to do with not purposely being argumentative, and hurling insults. It has to do with not being overly defensive, and verbally combative when not being attacked but reminded to LOVE. It has to do with being a gentlemen, we are ladies or female sheep (dating site, right? not a theological debate one), and you are a ram (bump us with those horns and it hurts). It has to do with things being said in LOVE and holy fear: that the manner in which a Word is spoken doesn't cause a little one or a weaker one to stumble.
