recently got into an argument in chat and thought I would bring it here.A girl saying she was pentacostal said she believed that everyone could recieve the gift of tongues, but in light of 1 Corinthians 12:29-31 I just don't see the bible agreeing with that.I believe there is a real gift of tongues and that all the gifts of the Spirit are in operation I just think that everyone has different gifts.
dear ryan, because of the verses you gave and also because of verse 11 that its up to the HOLY SPIRIT and how HE wills and its not how we will to have the gifts..
the bible also says the its ok for us to desire spiritual gifts or we can even desire the best spiritual gifts.. yet it is up to the HOLY SPIRIT to distribute to each one individually as HE wills. so not everybody winds up with the same gifts..
1 corinthians 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
something I have noticed is that things that come easy to me, seem like things anyone and everyone should be able to do with ease, yet things that come naturally to other people in that way, are not easy things for me. Sure, I can paint....like I'm in elementary school. But I don't understand why everyone can't sing. Don't ask me to pick up a musical instrument for you will swear someone is murdering a poor cat. Yet my Pastor can pick up any instrument and lift up an entire congregation with ease.
Perhaps for someone that can speak in tongues, they find it "easy". I was not given that gift, but the Lord did bless me to be eloquent with the words I do have, and to express myself well. I swear when people start talking in tongues, it kind of makes my skin crawl, for I don't understand it, and it is truly foreign to me.. That is when I have to remember that this is not my gift, but theirs and it is not my place to question their gift. That is between them and God, and its not about me.
Yeah...and the gift of "tongues" can be very dangerous if there is someone with ulterior motives that is "translating". Judge every word by the bible. Paul said he would rather prophesy then speak in tongues.
I teach at a Pentecostal college, and while speaking in tongues is "allowed," it is generally understood that not everyone will speak in tongues.
Personally, I'm conservative Baptist, and like most (no, not all) Baptists, I've never spoken in tongues! But if the Holy Spirit chooses to give me that gift, who am I to reject it?
Orthodox Classical Pentecostal denominations, such as the AG (Assemblies of God) and the Church of God, Cleveland, TN, teach that "speaking in tongues is the initial, physical evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit." In other words, the "Classical Pentecostal" position is that one *will speak in tongues* if they are baptized in the Holy Spirit. I'm former AG, myself, and no longer hold to this position.
Non-Orthodox Pentecostals, such as the UPC (United Pentecostal Church, who do not believe in the Trinity) probably believe in the "initial evidence of speaking in tongues" also.
In some Pentecostal circles it is even taught that one cannot be assured of *being saved* if they do not speak in tongues! The AG rejects this belief as unbiblical/false (as do I), but still holds that the baptism of the Holy Spirit -- with the evidence of speaking in tongues -- is *available* to all.
***In this post I'm not addressing the other various kinds (or types) of speaking in tongues ("prayer language," or an utterance in tongues with its concurrent gift of the interpretation of tongues), from either my own beliefs (charismatic) or of Classical Pentecostals (AG). That would be "a whole another thread!" Thanks.
Rick, do you know what the International Pentecostal Holiness Church teaches? The school I teach at is affiliated with the IPHC, and I don't think they view speaking in tongues as proof of salvation, but rather as a gift that is given selectively at appropriate times...at least, that's what I have gathered from my years there! Any thoughts on their teachings?
The IPHC was formed in 1911 with roots in Methodism and the Pentecostal revival of Azusa Street in 1906. Key IPHC doctrines include:
1. Salvation by faith in Jesus Christ and water baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
2. Sanctification as a second definite work of grace (the position of John Wesley).
3. The baptism of the Holy Spirit with tongues as initial evidence.
4. Divine healing
5. The second coming of Jesus Christ.
6. IPHC holds to the historic Catholic and Protestant view of the nature of God expressed in the doctrine of the Trinity.
The United Pentecostal Church (UPC) had its roots in the Azusa Street revival of 1906 and the Assemblies of God (1914). However, before 1920 there were ministers in the Assemblies of God who rejected baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They preferred baptism in the name of Jesus only. They based this on their reading of the book of Acts while the Trinitarians based their view on Acts and the words of Jesus in Matthew 28:19. Those who baptized only in the name of Jesus left the Assemblies of God and in 1945 formed the organization known as the UPC. They are sometimes called "Jesus Only" or "Oneness" Pentecostals.
The UPC's differ from IPHC in three important ways:
1. UPC's do not accept the Wesleyan view of sanctification as a second definite work of grace.
2. UPC's do not accept the historic view of the Trinity.
3. UPC's only baptize in the name of Jesus.
So, the IHPC is "orthodox" (trinitarian) and believe in "Three works of Grace" --- 1) Salvation, 2) Wesleyan Sanctification and, 3) the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (with tongues as evidence). I grew up in a small "Pentecostal Holiness" denomination: the Church of God of the Mountain Assembly which teaches the same things. Perhaps I should say"taught." Reason being, I don't think they emphasize the #2) much these days, though they still teach Christians must live a sanctified life. Thanks!
I just want to interject something here that is just my opinion, but I think it merits consideration.
Speaking in tongues also gives me "the Willys". I have read too many exorcisims where the posessed has gone into speaking languages they could not have possibliy known, so I treat this carefully with Spiritual Handling Gloves.
In Acts when The Apostle spoke in �tongues� the word tongues meant �languages�. I believe that The Apostles were speaking in the languages of the people present so that everyone heard thatr message in their own tongue (language).
This I believe is the true meaning of speaking in tongues.
The other type of �tongues� is the gibberish talk that is typically called �speaking in tongues�. This type is called glossolalia (glossa = tongue � lalia = speaking).
Anthropologist G J Jennings (1968) carried out an ethnological study of glossolalia and observed this behavior amongst Tibetan monks, certain North American Indians, the Haida Indians of the Pacific Northwest, the Aborigines of Australia, the aboriginal peoples of the subarctic regions of North America and Asia, the Curanderos of the Andes, the Dyaks of Borneo, the Chaco Indians of South America, shamans in the Sudan, Siberia and Greenland, and in various cults (Voodoo in Haiti, Zor in Ethiopia, Shango on the west coast of Africa, and the Shago in Trinidad).
Apparently The Holy Spirit is passing this gift out to anyone.
Bynum (1999) describes the origin of modern-day tongues:
"In 1900 Charles F. Parham opened the Bethel Bible School in Topeka, Kansas. Under his teaching and ministry, Miss Agnes Ozman was influenced to speak in tongues. Within a short time a dozen more students had this experience."
It seems that this gift can be �taught� or perhaps �mimicked�.
Dr. Kildahl, an ordained Lutheran clergy man and former chief psychologist at the Lutheran Medical Center in Brooklyn, said in a New York Times (1974 January 21) article ��that the Pentecostal practice of speaking in tongues constituted 'learned behavior.� Dr. Kildahl recently published a study of glossolalia... In his address, he said that
on the basis of his research and extensive correspondence with charismatic Christians it appeared that five elements were normally present when someone began speaking in tongues:
*** A 'magnetic' relationship with a group leader
*** A sense of personal distress,
***Intense emotional atmosphere
***A supporting group,
***The prior learning of the rationale of Speaking in Tongue�s religious significance.�
In the case of people who begin to speak in tongues when they are alone, he said �these five conditions have been present in the days or weeks preceding the initial experience.�
Gerlach and Hine (1968) conducted a study amongst Pentecostal Christians and asked them to rank in importance the factors that influenced them to seek the experience of tongues. The study revealed that the most significant factor was contact with an individual who had already had the experience.
At least two studies have been undertaken with the express goal of teaching glossolalia. Samarin (1968) reported that he had taught members of his linguistic class how to speak in tongues, outside of any religious context, and as expected there were no feelings of euphoria as a result of the speaking.
Spanos et.al. (1986) carried out a similar experiment, showing that glossolalia was a learnable skill. After hearing a recorded sample of genuine glossolalia, 20% of his subjects were able to speak in tongues immediately without further training. After some coaching, 70% of the trained subjects were fluent in glossolalia. The authors conclude:
"Glossolalia (speaking in tongues), therefore, seems likely to be a type of learned behavior rather than a special altered state of mind."
Kildahl (1975) concludes that "the evidence is strong that one may learn to speak in tongues under certain prescribed conditions" and details what he calls the "induction process" leading up to glossolalic speech and summarizes his perspective as follows:
"My glossolalia research has convinced me that it is a learned behavior which can bring a sense of power and well-being. It may also lead to excesses resulting in community disruption. It is the use of glossolalia which determines whether or not it is constructive."
Glossolalia is perhaps best understood as a vocal behavior that can be acquired by almost anyone who possesses the necessary motivation and who is exposed regularly to social environments that encourage such utterances
If you�ve read this far then I congratulate you and I ask that you think carefully about this phenomena. God can give whomever He wants to any gift He deems fit and I do not question the possibility of their truly being such a gift. My problem is that I can mimic speaking in tongues whenever I want to and therefore know that so can others.
It is man�s nature to want to be considered special and looked up to by his peers and friends, but there are those who would use this ability to fake something that is a gift from God to their own purpose. Also to be considered is the fact that the dark one can also give people �gifts�.
Please be wary of anyone that speaks in tongues that has not shown any prior stability and worth to The Body of CHRIST.
dear arch, why thank you sir.. and you make a valid point.. i am sure there are some out there that do indeed try to fake speaking in tongues or tell folks they do when really they dont... from what ive seen thats not the norm.. if they do then GOD will hold them accountable for their actions.. so id be really scairt of claimin it and faking it if i was them..
