Author Thread: An interesting read!
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An interesting read!
Posted : 17 Nov, 2009 05:59 AM

I know everyone does not agree,but I found this article to be an incredible read!Please no debates on this,I get the fact that most of you are arminians....or something.Just read it for the heck of it.



Our sovereign God

First, the sovereignty of God. If there is one doctrine for which Calvinism is known, it is this one. The Bible, say the Calvinists, teaches that God rules over all of creation, over all of history, decreeing and determining, in the words of the Shorter Catechism, `whatsoever comes to pass.' Joseph can look back at his wretched circumstances when his brothers sold him into slavery and say `God meant it for good' (Gen. 50:20). God says through Isaiah, `I am ... the One forming light and darkness, causing well-being and calamity, I am the Lord who does all these' (Isa. 45:7). He works `all things after the counsel of his will' (Eph. 1:11). He `causes all things to work together for good' (Rom. 8:28). There are no exceptions to this. Sparrows don't fall out of trees and hairs don't fall out of heads apart from His will (Matt. 10:29, 30). Everything is controlled and determined by God. Including evil? In one sense yes, in another no. God is not the author of evil, but neither is evil running loose in God's universe outside of His sovereign purposes. Even the crucifixion, that most evil of all human deeds, was said by Peter at Pentecost to be carried out by the `predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God' (Acts 2:23). The early church said that Herod and Pilate and the rest did whatever God's hand and purpose `predestined to occur' (Acts 4:28).Every atom of existence is under the direct control of God. There is not even `one maverick molecule,' as R. C. Sproul says. Everything is under the control of God.



Human depravity

The second cardinal doctrine is that of the depravity of man. Are people basically good or basically evil? The Christian church has historically said that people are by nature evil. Within Christendom, there is no theological perspective so pessimistic about human nature as that of Augustine and Calvin. Historically we have used the terminology of `total depravity' to describe the human condition, meaning by it that people are corrupted, poisoned, and anti-God in all their faculties. Again, using the language of the Westminster Standards: (Man) is utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite unto all that is spiritually good, and wholly inclined to all evil and that continually (Larger Catechism Q. 25).



Is the Bible really as negative about humanity as this indicates? Survey the Scriptures. God said of man in the days of Noah that `every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually' (Gen. 6:5). Through Jeremiah he says of the human heart, `The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?' (Jer. 17:9). In Ecclesiastes we read, `... the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil, and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives' (Eccles. 9:3). Paul, in Romans, quotes the Psalms in saying, `as it is written, "there is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one" ' (Rom. 3:10-12). Jesus said simply, `men loved the darkness rather than the light' (John 3:19, 20). The problem is deep within us, in our desires, in our natures, in our loves and hates.



Thus, we may summarize with Paul's ultimate metaphor, man is `dead in his trespasses and sins' (Eph. 2:1-3). He is dead to good. He is dead to God. He is helpless, hopeless, and hellish.



Sovereign grace

Third, the sovereignty of grace. This follows necessarily from the previous two points. Man is so incapacitated by sin that unless God acts to rescue him nothing will happen. He will remain dead and blind. Thus the doctrine of the sovereignty of God, plus that of the depravity of man, leads us inexorably to the doctrine of sovereign grace. We cannot live spiritually unless we are born `of God' or `of the Spirit' (John 1:13; 3:8). We remain dead unless we are `made alive' with Christ (Eph. 2:5). We cannot come to Him unless He `draws' us (John 6:44). We cannot choose Him unless He chooses us (John 15:16). We cannot love Him unless he first loves us (1 John 4:19). We cannot believe Him unless He gives us faith (Eph. 2:8, 9). If we are to be saved God must sovereignly do it. `By His doing you are in Christ Jesus,' Paul writes (1 Cor. 1:31).Salvation is `of the Lord' (Jonah 2:9).



Who benefits from this sovereign and gracious intervention by God? Not all (or all would be saved), but some, specifically, those who are chosen. In the language of the Westminster Confession of Faith, By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death (III.3).



Calvin called this the decretum horrible. In the language of Scripture, `He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world... In love He predestined us' (Eph. 1:4, 5). `Well, that is just an isolated text,' you say. No, it would be truer to say that it is found on every page of Scripture. Work your way through the Book of Acts. Almost casually you will read that the number who believe is the same as the number whom `the Lord shall call to Himself' (2:39); that God Himself `adds' to the number of the church (2:47); that God Himself `grants' repentance (5:31, 11:18); that the Lord `opens' the heart (16:14); and most blatantly we read, `as many as were ordained to eternal life believed' (13:48).



Turn to the Epistles. `God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation,' Paul tells the Thessalonians (2 Thess. 2:13). He has `saved us,' he tells Timothy, ... and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity (2 Tim. 1:9).



We could go on (and on!) but I think the point has been made. God is sovereign and grace is sovereignly dispensed. If you're not convinced, we'll see overwhelming evidence in the pages ahead. Stay tuned.



Responses

Does this sound like `good news' to you? For me, there is none better. Yet many react negatively. Let me summarize two such responses.



First, those who aren't familiar with the Bible or sure that they believe it typically recoil in horror. For them, the God described above is a monster. God, they would say, insofar as we know anything about Him, is kindly and good, but passively watching and remote. He doesn't control, and certainly doesn't predestinate anything.



Moreover, for the unfamiliar and unbelieving, man is good. He may be misled by corruptions in his environment, but he is essentially benevolent. And man is paramount. Man's freedom, man's accomplishments, man's potentials are the name of the game for them, and both Calvinism's God and Calvinism's man assault their ambition for autonomous humanity.



Second, even among Bible-believing Christians there is alarm. This would especially be true of the many evangelical believers who are unaccustomed to thinking theologically. They don't like to think theologically. Their great question is `what difference does it make?' If they can't see how it makes a difference in their lives they aren't interested. Now this is noteworthy because normally evangelical and fundamentalist types are fond of saying that they believe the whole Bible. But show them that `predestination-stuff', right there in the Bible, and they become strangely silent and uninterested. The discussion moves on. In fact, when evangelical believers hear about the sovereignty of God, the depravity of man, and the sovereignty of grace, many are almost as horrified as the persons described above. They'll counter such talk with strong affirmations about `free-will', a term not found in the Bible, and `whosoever will may come', a phrase not found in the Bible. They may say, as I was told in the church of my youth, `we don't know what it means, but it doesn't mean that.' This would even be true of many members of Presbyterian and Reformed churches. They may say that they believe their creeds and confessions and catechisms. But when this subject of election is brought up they, too, begin to grumble about `what difference' it all makes, and how `you'll get into heaven whether you understand that or not,' and how the important thing to do is to get on with the job of winning souls! All this theology is getting in the way of evangelism! We need to quit speculating and get on with preaching the gospel. Does it make a difference? We are convinced that it does, and that it is vital that God's people understand the practical difference Calvinism makes. These doctrines are not just the theoretical musings of ivory-tower theologians. They are not just abstractions unconnected to life. They are central. They are vital. They are crucial to the living of life.



How so? Few seem to realize that these theological truths have shaped whole peoples and civilizations. Americans, of all people, ought to understand this. The nation was founded primarily by English Puritans, beginning at Plymouth Rock. Even though many other groups followed, their legacy was enduring. Among the other groups that did come to the American colonies, 85% of the population at the time of the American Revolution were of the Calvinistic heritage, being either English Puritans, Scotch-Irish Presbyterians, Dutch Reformed, German Reformed, or French Hugenot. What is their legacy? Such vital principles as the rule of law, due process, freedom of religion, democracy, limited government, free markets, a strong work ethic, stress upon education (Harvard was founded only a few years after the colony was established). All of these principles and points of emphasis flow directly from Calvinistic religion.4 No wonder one German historian could call Calvin `the virtual founder of America.'



Contemporary Christians ought also to understand it. The Calvinistic church has stood for representative government (in the electing of elders), for congregational participation in worship and congregational singing, for the centrality of the preached word, for the laity receiving communion in both kinds, for justification by faith alone, for the new birth and revival, not exactly a list of irrelevant items, many of which have been accepted even by Roman Catholics in their Vatican II reforms. Calvinism has played a vital role in giving both the modern world and the contemporary church their current shape. But instead of looking at the institutional dimension (much as I would love to and may in the future), we will focus on the practical difference Calvinism makes in matters of personal piety, things such as assurance, humility, adversity, guidance, prayer, sanctification, and a thing we'll call `outlook.' We will see the difference the doctrines of grace make right where we live and act and walk. Hopefully you'll never again need to ask, `what difference does it make?'



`My people perish for their lack of knowledge,' God warns through Hosea (Hos. 4:16). This surely has been our problem. We have not had the patience to wrestle with the great truths. We have deliberately avoided certain doctrines. The result? The same result that occurs whenever one deliberately refuses any part of God's revelation of Himself. We suffer. We lose. Our souls don't receive the nourishment that that doctrine supplies. Our personalities are warped by that omission. Paul taught `the whole counsel of God' because we need it all (Acts 20:27). If we didn't need a part of it, God would not have revealed it to us. Since He did, we can't go around saying, `It's too hard,' or `It's too theological.' Apply your minds. `Come let us reason together,' the Lord says (Isa. 1:18). This is what we intend to do in the pages ahead. I believe that the result will be a much expanded knowledge of God for most. With that will come a clearer understanding of life as well.



In Christ



Steve

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An interesting read!
Posted : 19 Nov, 2009 10:44 PM

Steve,



Nice post. I am also a believer in God chosing.

Many are called, but few are chosen.

Some are chosen, and thats clearly a fact.



Even Paul, talking about this EXACT subject says,



Rom 9:11 Yet, before they were born or had done any good or evil � in order that the purpose of Elohim, according to choice, might stand, not of works but of Him who calls �

Rom 9:12 it was said to her, �The greater shall serve the lesser,�

Rom 9:13 as it has been written, �Yaʽaqoḇ I have loved, but Ěsaw I have hated.�

Rom 9:14 What, then, shall we say? Is there unrighteousness with Elohim? Let it not be!

Rom 9:15 For He says to Mosheh, �I shall favour whomever I favour, and I shall have compassion on whomever I have compassion.�

Rom 9:16 So, then, it is not of him who is wishing, nor of him who is running, but of Elohim who shows favour.

Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, �For this same purpose I have raised you up, to show My power in you, and that My Name be declared in all the earth.�

Rom 9:18 So, then, He favours whom He wishes, and He hardens whom He wishes.

Rom 9:19 Then you shall say to me, �Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His counsel?�

Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to Elohim? Shall that which is formed say to him who formed it, �Why have you made me like this?�

Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for value and another not for value?

Rom 9:22 And if Elohim, desiring to show wrath, and to make His power known, with much patience tolerated the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His esteem on vessels of compassion, which He had prepared beforehand for esteem,

Rom 9:24 even whom He called, not only us of the Yehuḏim, but also of the gentiles?





This is how people get led astray by this 'once saved always saved' doctrine... (let me explain)..

Those whom God has chosen are saved eternally, but God already knows this. These are the ones who believe, and their belief will not fail.

But just saying I believed in Jesus, or I believed Jesus was Lord (at one time in my life- but don't anymore)... is dangerous.



Paul said, "Unless you hold fast, you have believed in vain"

"Work out your salvation"

And many more..



Even Romans 10:9.. What does it say? That whoever BELIEVES, not BELIEVED, but BELIEVES.

Check the scripture in every place even about being secure.. it is always saying BELIEVES, ALWAYS in the present.



But why.. why are there so many different views and different doctrines.. and different paths?..



I'll tell you why. Because Calvin, and Augustine, and whoever ELSE, including 99% of christedom today do NOT KNOW GOD ALMIGHTY, NOR DO THEY KNOW WHO THE MESSIAH IS! And it is true, they do not have forgiveness of sins.

Why? Because they believe Jesus is God!

NO where in scripture does it say Jesus is God; and men put together so many scripture verses, taking from here and adding to this and putting THEOLOGY into it when the TRUTH is already written! What does it say????

Enter into the kingdom as a child, first taking in the untouched MILK of the Word.



Who is it who has forgivness of sin? The one who believes Yahushua Messiah (or Jesus) is the Son of the Living God sent to earth to die for our sins. The one who believes God raised this man from the dead, the first risen from the dead, never to die again!...

The one who believes THIS Messiah is Lord; THIS IS THE ONE WHO RECIEVES FORGIVNESS OF SIN!!! (yay!)



And there is no other. "I am the way, the truth and the life, NO ONE goes to the Father except through me."



Who is he?



Yahushua said, "And you, who do you say I am?"

Peter replied, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the Living God"

"Blessed are you, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my Father who is in heaven!"



woot woot! So who is he?



He is the Son.. but who can know who the Son is? The one who the Father draws, thats who.

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An interesting read!
Posted : 20 Nov, 2009 12:37 AM

dear folks, choice is a wonderful thing.. or it can be detrimental to ya...

ole cattle

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An interesting read!
Posted : 22 Nov, 2009 12:06 PM

Totally agree Organics and Cattleman~~:applause:

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