OLD Topic 2013 .. ...... Now recently posted on Again ! Maybe interesting to revisit !!
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The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
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Thread: The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
DontHitThatMark
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The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
Posted : 10 Oct, 2013 06:32 AM
I was doing a study on this today, and found a lot of verses that are very interesting. I know that the Jehovah's Witnesses believe this, but they also believe that Jesus was simply a created being like humans are. Would you say that there is a biblical inconsistency with believing that Michael is Jesus, and is yet still the eternal "Ancient of Days"? As in, "Michael" is just another of the many different names that Jesus had? The term "angel" in the bible is translated simply from "messenger", it doesn't mean a different being or species, and Jesus IS the greatest messenger, the "Archangel".
Matthew 22
1While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,44The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?45If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
Jesus is denoting two Lords here, both are the Lord of David, which is consistent with Jesus and God being the same.
Dan 10:21
But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
Michael is referred to as Daniel's prince.
Gen 22:11
11And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Who is this "Angel" that speaks for God and commands Abraham not to withhold his son from Him?
Exd 3:2
2And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
The "Angel of the Lord" is in the midst of the bush, and then it's noted that it's God speaking out of the midst of the bush, and Moses is commanded to remove his sandals because the ground is holy.
Joshua 5:13-15
13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant? 15 And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
This is obviously not a man, no man or regular angel ever received worship, they always deny that they are to be worshiped. So this must be the Lord, and He refers to Himself as the Commander of the armies of the Lord. He even tells Joshua to remove his sandals because the ground is holy.
Rev 19:11-15
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Jesus isn't name here directly, but it's pretty obvious who this is talking about, even though He is referred to by using different names and titles. The leader of the armies of heaven, with a sharp sword to smite the nations.
1Ch 21:16
And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces.
The "Angel of the Lord" is standing between heaven and earth with a sword to smite Jerusalem.
Rev 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels.
Michael is noted as leading "His" angels in the war against Satan. The leader of the armies of heaven.
Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Michael stands up and apparently has the authority to be able to affect when the time of trouble begins in the last days. He also is noted as "standing for the people". Jesus is the one who stands for us in the judgment.
Exodus 23
20Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. 22But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
This Angel here is obviously special, the name of God is in Him and He is not to be disobeyed or provoked.
Jdg 2:1
And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.
The "Angel of the Lord" was with them in Egypt and made a covenant with their fathers.
1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Jesus is the one who was in the wilderness with the Israelites, the Apostles were looking back into the scriptures that they had and discovering that Jesus was extremely active in the Old Testament.
Num 22:32
32And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine donkey these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me: 33And the donkey saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive. 34And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD, I have sinned; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again. 35And the angel of the LORD said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak. So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.
The "Angel of the Lord" determined that Balaam's way was perverse before Him, and commands Balaam to go with the men, but only to speak what the "Angel" tells him to.
Zechariah 3:2
2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
"The Lord" said, "The Lord rebuke thee" when standing against Satan.
Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Michael the Archangel said, "The Lord rebuke thee" when contending with Satan.
So, what do you think? I know it's not a huge thing that changes the whole bible, but I feel like it really punctuates all that Jesus has been doing for us since the beginning. It didn't just start with His birth and He wasn't sitting on the sidelines in the Old Testament, He was very often interacting with us. No man has ever seen the Father, Jesus is the one they saw.
John 1
18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 6
45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Exodus 24
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
The elders saw Jesus on the mountain. This idea also gives a new meaning to following the commandments of Jesus, because this follows the verses from exodus:
Exodus 24
12 And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.
Jesus gave Moses the commandments, which makes His later comments make a lot more sense.
Matthew 5
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
:peace::peace:
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DontHitThatMark
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The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
Posted : 11 Oct, 2013 06:07 AM
Mcubed, it's not something that isn't in the bible, I put a lot of scriptures up there. I'm not saying that Jesus is not God, I'm saying that Michael is just another name for Jesus, just like "Emmanuel", etc . There are a ton of similarities between Jesus and the Angel of the Lord and Michael, they're all stepping into each other's jobs, and that leads me to believe that it's a very logical conclusion to say they are the same person. They all use the same words, they all have the same functions, they're all the leader of the army of heaven.
Mcubed: "Michael cannot be the Angel of the Lord. Angels cannot be worshiped or anything, that belongs only to G-d, and the Hebrew Scripture makes it clear the angel of the Lord is Y-shua and Y-shua Himself in the New Testament."
Is there any place in the bible that says the Angel of the Lord's name? I'm saying that we should look at what they do and what they claim to determine who they are, not the simple words that people referred to them by. In Joshua 5:13-15 a "Man" appears to Joshua, but it was definitely not a man because the Man let Joshua worship Him. If a "Man" can accept worship, even though He's referred to as a "man", then it's what they say or do that lets us determine what/who they are. Also, like you said, there are only a few places where Michael is mentioned. In Daniel, He's referred to as a "Chief Prince", He's referred to as Daniel's "Prince", He's referred to as "that Great Prince which standeth for your people". In Jude, He stands in same place as the Lord when contending with Satan, and He uses the exact same words as the Lord did when defending Joshua against Satan in Zechariah 3. In Revelation, it's Michael that was the leader of the armies in the war in Heaven, which is the same job that the "Man" had when He appeared to Joshua and caused Joshua to worship Him.
1Th 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The voice of the "archangel" is used by the Lord, right there with the trump of God. It just sounds like way too much power and position for an angel. It sounds almost blasphemous to say that a created being has the power, the voice, the words, the titles, and the function of the Lord, it has to be the Lord Himself. That's the conclusion I come to anyway. Can you show me from the bible that the conclusion is incorrect or that there is something inconsistent about the argument? I would honestly like to know if there is, especially if you're going to imply that it's the teaching of a cult.:laugh:
:peace::peace:
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DontHitThatMark
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The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
Posted : 11 Oct, 2013 06:21 AM
Ah, I think I was accidentally responding to your comments toward Somebuddiesdream.
:dunce:
:peace::peace:
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The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
Posted : 11 Oct, 2013 01:24 PM
Michael in Hebrew means "Who like God?" or Who is like unto God?" And of course the answer is NO ONE!
According to Jude 1:9 Michael is the archangel and according to Hebrews 1:3-8 below Jesus is NOT an angel and is far above the angels.
Hebrews 1:3-8: After He {Jesus} had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So He became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs....When God brings His Firstborn into the world, He says, "Let all God's angels worship Him!" In speaking of the angels He says, "He makes His angels winds, his servants flames of fire." But about the Son He says, "Your throne O *GOD* will last for ever and ever!"
Genesis 5:22-24: Enoch WALKED WITH GOD 300 years... Enoch WALKED WITH GOD;.... then he was no more because God took him away!
There are some who have speculated that God made Enoch the archangel and renamed him Michael.
:angel::angel::angel::angel::angel::angel::angel:
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Tijmen010
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The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
Posted : 11 Oct, 2013 01:34 PM
Jesus IS NOT Michael. Simply because of this:
We know from Revelation chapter 1 that the Man in Daniel chapter 10 is Jesus Christ. And this Man in Daniel chapter 10 is helped by Michael. So in Daniel 10 Jesus was helped by Michael. So Jesus is not Michael.
Read these chapters for yourself and you will find out ;)
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The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
Posted : 12 Oct, 2013 11:23 AM
The description of the heavenly body of Jesus in Revelation 1:13-17 is exactly the same as the description of someone that the archangel Michael helped in Daniel 10:5,6 thus proving that the archangel Michael and Jesus are not the same .
Revelation 1:13-17: Among the lampstands was someone "like the Son of Man," dressed in a robe reaching down to His feet and with a golden sash around His chest. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow,, and His eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and His voice like the sound of rushing waters...His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance . John said, "When I saw Him, I fell at His feet as though dead. Then He placed His right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last!"
Compare with Daniel 10:5,6,13, 16,17: Daniel said, "I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in *LINEN*, with the belt of the finest gold around His waist. His body was like chrysolite, his face like lightning, His eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and His voice like the sound of a multitude..... And He said the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted Me. Then *MICHAEL*, one of the cheif princes, came to help Me!"..... Daniel said "I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my LORD, and I am helpless. How can I, your servant, talk with you my LORD? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe."
And so this shows that Michael is definately not Jesus!!
The archangel Michael also appears just before the beinning of the 1260-day Great Tribulation in Revelation 12:7 which was prophesied in Daniel 12:1,2,7.
Revelation 12:7-9,13,14: And there was war in Heaven. *MICHAEL* and his angels fought against the dragon {Satan} and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whold world astray. He was hurled to earth and his angels with him...When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to earthhe pursued the woman. The woman was was given two wings of a great eagle so that she may fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.
By comparing Rev 12:6 with Rev 12:14 we know that time {360 days}, times {720 days} and half a time{180 days} is 1260 days: Rev 12:6 "The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for *1260 days!*
This 1260-day or time, times and half a time Great Tribulation with the archangel Michael coming before is also prophesied in Daniel 12:1,2,7:
Daniel 12:1,2,7: At that time *MICHAEL*, the great prince who protects your people, will arise {See Rev 12:7 above}. There will be a time of distress such as not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the Book {The Lamb's Book of Life}--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.....The Man clothed in *LINEN* {Jesus--see Dan 10:5 above} said... "It will be for a time 360 days}, times {720 days} and half a time {180 days} when the power of the holy people has been finally broken **ALL* these things will be completed!!"
The archangel Michael is also mentioned in Jude 9: "But even the archangel *MICHAEL*, when he was disputing with the devil about the the body of Moses..." the arch angel *MICHAEL* is mentioned exactly 5 times in God's Word : Daniel 10:13,21; Daniel 12:1; Jude 9 and Revelation 12:7. Michael is called a prince in Daniel.
:angel::angel::angel::angel::angel::angel::angel:
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DontHitThatMark
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The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
Posted : 14 Oct, 2013 06:53 AM
That's actually a really good point, but I don't think it is Jesus that appeared in Daniel 10. Take a closer look.
Daniel 10
5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
7 And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.
8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.
10 And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.
11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.
12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
:bouncy:In this first section, it's immediately similar to the angel Gabriel coming to help Daniel in Chapter 9. The being doesn't inform Daniel of the presence of God or cause him to worship him, but he does introduce himself in the same way as Daniel 9 and comes to Daniel for the very same reason.
Daniel 9
Gabriel Brings an Answer
20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my plea before the Lord my God for the holy hill of my God, 21 while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He made me understand, speaking with me and saying, �O Daniel, I have now come out to give you insight and understanding. 23 At the beginning of your pleas for mercy a word went out, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly loved. Therefore consider the word and understand the vision.
Daniel 10 again:
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
:bouncy:You must also consider, you're saying that Jesus, the God of Heaven, needed help from an angel when dealing with a man, that is something that we never see in scripture. Jesus always stands and always overcomes, the only times he needed help from angels was when He was here as a man tempted by Satan, or right before His death, and still it was only AFTER He had already overcome His trials and gained the victory.
Daniel 10 again:
14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
15 And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.
16 And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.
17 For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.
18 Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,
19 And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
:bouncy:At the end of the conversation here, the being says that he is returning to fight the prince of Persia , so it's still the same being that needed help at the beginning. I see that Daniel calls this being "lord", but he also called the kings of Babylon "lord"(4:19, 24), and he refers to another angel or messenger as "lord"(12:8). My question is, what evidence is there that this being in Daniel 10 is actually Jesus? I don't see any of the identifying characteristics in this being's behavior, it's much more like a messenger, and I would say that it's actually Gabriel.
:bouncy::bouncy:
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houtxz
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The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
Posted : 20 Jan, 2024 05:54 PM
Very interesting question, and looks like we’re all confused on the matter. I’m also confused. How about we start with this question: Is God Almighty an angel?
I asked this because I only recently learned that some Christians (not sure if most) have this belief that the “Angel of the Lord” is God Almighty or Jesus. Makes me wonder if most Christians even know about this theology, or know about this belief, because I never heard anyone say this.
I’m really shocked to learn this because as the original post mentioned, JWs make the same argument, that Jesus is an angel, or the archangel Michael to be precise. Regardless, how can Jesus or God Almighty be an angel? Where in Scripture does it teach that God Almighty is an angel? Where does it say that Jesus is an angel? As far I know, God is not an angel, angels are His creation, but He is a spirit.
Frankly, I believe this interpretation, that the “Angel of the Lord” is Jesus, was made because we Christians want to find him in the Hebrew Scriptures. I seriously think this is a stretch, because as the original post said, JWs make this argument, that Jesus is an angel, or archangel, but Christians are quick to call them heretics for this belief!
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OLD Topic 2013 .. ...... Now recently posted on Again ! Maybe interesting to revisit !!
Posted : 27 Jan, 2024 11:46 AM
A helpful short response from
GotQuestions might get things started.
GotQuestions
Is Jesus Michael the archangel?
Jesus is not Michael the archangel. The Bible nowhere identifies Jesus as Michael (or any other angel, for that matter). Hebrews 1:5-8 draws a clear distinction between Jesus and the angels: “For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father’? Or again, ‘I will be His Father, and He will be my Son’? And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says, ‘Let all God’s angels worship Him.’ In speaking of the angels He says, ‘He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire.’ But about the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The hierarchy of heavenly beings is made clear in this passage—angels worship Jesus who, as God, is alone worthy of worship. No angel is ever worshiped in Scripture; therefore, Jesus (worthy of worship) cannot be Michael or any other angel (not worthy of worship). The angels are called sons of God (Genesis 6:2-4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7), but Jesus is THE Son of God (Hebrews 1:8; Matthew 4:3-6).
Michael the archangel is perhaps the highest of all the angels. Michael is the only angel in the Bible who is designated “the archangel” (Jude verse 9). Michael the archangel, though, is only an angel. He is not God. The clear distinction in the power and authority of Michael and Jesus can be seen in comparing Matthew 4:10 where Jesus rebukes Satan, and Jude verse 9, where Michael the archangel “dared not bring a judgment of blasphemy” against Satan and calls on the Lord to rebuke him. Jesus is God incarnate (John 1:1, 14). Michael the archangel is a powerful angel, but still only an angel.
