"You shall speak all these words to them, but they will not listen to you." (Jeremiah 7:27)
(You need to read the entire article---it's not what you think!)
What is the Church? The Greek word used in the New Testament about which this treatise is concerned is ekklesia (pronounced ek-klay-see'-ah) and in the King James Version is translated "church," "churches," or "assembly." In other translations it is sometimes rendered "congregation." The word ekklesia comes from ek, "out of" and klesis, "a calling." There was a falling away from truth near the end of Paul's ministry, and more definitely by the time of the writing of the Book of Revelation. Jesus rebuked five of seven churches in chapters two and three approximately 95 A.D. They were composed of primarily second-generation Christians 65 years after Pentecost. There never has been a full recovery from the falling away, and indeed we have good reason to believe that the prophesied apostasy of the last days is upon us.
An early church that Jesus rebuked that was typical of many today was the church at Ephesus (Rev. 2:1-7). They did many works and had patience and could not put up with evil men and could discern false apostles. They had labored for the name of Jesus without growing weary, and like Jesus they hated the works of the Nicolaitans. But Jesus told them that they were fallen! He told them that they needed to repent! He said they had left their first love! Jesus told them that unless they repented and did the first works (the works of the Church of several decades before, which was to evangelize the unsaved and make disciples of the converts) He would remove their candlestick!
How many churches today would fit this description? How many today are patient and discerning of false apostles and labor in Jesus' name but have already had their candlestick removed? How many are doing the primary work of the Church, which is to evangelize the unsaved and make disciples (according to the three conditions of Luke 14) of the converts? Many are evangelizing the unsaved, but they are not even disciples themselves according to Luke 14, therefore they are only reproducing their own kind and building the apostate Church of the last days.
We must adhere to the Word of God in our doctrines and practices. Women who have been born again are Christians, they are saints, they are believers, they are daughters of Abraham, they are part of the elect, they are joint-heirs with Christ, they are children of God, and they are heirs of God.
One truth that has been overlooked for centuries is that Christian women are all the things mentioned above, but they are not part of the Church. The Church (universal) and local churches are composed of male believers only, the brethren. Women are not part of the ekklesia.
Concerning the rapture on the last day when Jesus returns, the Scriptures nowhere teach that the "Church," per se, will be raptured. It is the saints that will be raptured---which includes women.
Christ is the Head of the Church (Eph. 5:23). And God said through the apostle Paul, "I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man [not Christ]." (1 Cor. 11:3). The plain teaching of the Scriptures is that Christ is the head of man but not the head of woman. Women are not part of the Church of which Christ is the head. The head of the woman is man. Paul continues, "...Forasmuch as he [the man, not the woman] is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man....Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man" (1 Cor 11:7, 9). "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband [not Christ] is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church...Therefore as the church [the brethren] is subject unto Christ, so let wives be to their own husbands in every thing" (Eph. 5:22-24).
According to the Word of God, women are not part of a church. They are, however, by virtue of their physical presence, part of a congregation when it is assembled.
In the apostle Paul's first and second epistle to "the church of the Thessalonians" he addressed only the brethren (men). The "brethren" (adelphos) does not include sisters (adelphe). In the first epistle to the church in Thessalonica, Paul addressed the brethren 15 times, and in the second epistle he addressed the brethren seven times.
In the epistle of James "to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" it was to the universal Church of that time which consisted almost exclusively of Jewish Christian men. Therefore, there are no addresses to women in the epistle, but there are 15 to the "brethren."
Likewise, in the epistle to "the churches of Galatia" Paul addressed the brethren nine times, but had nothing to say to women because they were not part of the churches of Galatia.
None of these epistles to churches included any addresses to women. Women were addressed in the epistles only if the letters were not written exclusively to the churches (the brethren). In other words, epistles addressed to churches only, were to men only. Women were included only when they were addressed, for example, to "the saints which are at Ephesus." The saints at Ephesus included men and women. Paul addressed wives in 5:22 and children in 6:1. Again, women who are believers are Christians, they are children of God, they are saints, and they are joint-heirs with Christ, but they are not part of the ekklesia composed of the brethren.
The epistle to the Romans was addressed "to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints" (Rom. 1:7) which included women, but in that letter when Paul directed his words specifically to the men, he said, "I beseech you therefore, brethren...we, being many, are one body in Christ" (Rom. 12:1, 5).
Women are not part of the Body of Christ which is the Church. Paul wrote, "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant...For by one Spirit are we [the brethren] all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free...Now ye [brethren] are the body of Christ" (1 Cor. 12:1, 13, 27). Paul does not here include "male or female" when writing of spiritual gifts of those in the Body of Christ, because what he writes only pertains to the brethren. Paul does mention, however, in Galatians 3:26-29 that concerning salvation (being spiritually baptized into the Spirit of Christ) there is no distinction, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Females, of course, can be born again and have the Spirit of Christ in them and they can be in the Spirit of Christ, and they can have certain spiritual gifts, but they are not in the Body of Christ which is altogether masculine.
Women are not part of the universal Church which is the Body of Christ nor are they part of a local church which is (or should be) a picture of the universal Church. Women are not to hold the office of bishop, elder, or deacon. They are not to teach or usurp authority over men, they are to remain silent in the midst of the churches. Paul wrote, "How is it then brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine...Let your women keep silence in the churches [assemblies]" (1 Cor. 14:26, 34). It is a commandment of the Lord, who is the Head of the Church, for women to be silent in the churches. Christ said through Paul, "Let your women keep silence in the churches: [the same Greek word for "silence" is used in Acts 22:2, "And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence"] for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. [Genesis 3:16 says, And thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands [Gk. aner, "man"] at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church [assembly]...The things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (1 Cor. 14: 34-35, 37). Paul also told Timothy, who was overseeing the church in Ephesus, "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence" (1 Tim. 2:11-12).
Sunday School (with men and women teachers) is a relatively new concept and was not found in the Church for the first 1700 years. However, in the homes the older women should "teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed" (Titus 2:4-5).
When Christ chose the Twelve Apostles, He chose men. And when He chose the Seventy to go out, He chose men. Likewise, when the apostles summoned the "brethren" (Acts 6:3) to choose some to take care of the daily distribution of food to the widows, they did not choose women to fill this office, rather they chose seven men.
It is noteworthy that Paul's epistles were from him or from him and one or more brethren, but never from him and any sisters, because women are not to teach doctrine and women are not part of the Church.
The right concept of the local church is necessary for God's people to carry out His work according to the Scriptures. A local church consists of all the brethren within a given locality under (but completely separate from) one local civil government. There are, however, no scripturally organized local churches in these last days of apostasy.
A local church, according to the Scriptures, does not have a separate identity such as the Baptist Church, or the Lutheran Church, or the Mennonite Church. All this is not of God, it is man's work having been deceived by the enemy. There is a demonic ecumenical movement for uniting all "churches," but at the same time there is (and always has been) a demonic work to divide Christians. The result is confusion with continual uniting and splitting, which will ultimately end in an almost universally apostate Church and many true Christians will be overcome by the Antichrist.
Doctrinal error almost never stands alone. It affects our thinking and practice in other areas of the Christian life. At least we need to see these truths concerning what a local church really is in order not to be led astray in some other doctrines and practices.
True unity is based on truth, not compromise or anything else. Unity of the brethren is very important to the Lord. The same view should be taken of the brotherhood as the marriage relationship---at least regarding divisions and splits. Divorce is not an option. If the erring partner wants to leave, let him depart, but the one following Christ should never initiate such action.
One thing that greatly complicates the issue is not knowing what a scriptural local church really is. A local church is not something that one "joins" like so many secular organizations. Joining a church is a concept that was adopted from the world. A brother is a "member" of the local church (and the universal Church) by virtue of being born again and residing within a given locality.
One concern among church leaders regarding the scriptural view of the local church is that of church discipline, and how to handle excommunication when necessary. This would be handled effectively when, according to the Scriptures, there is only one local church in a city or county that one bishop and a number of elders oversee. (There are, however, no scripturally organized local churches, nor are there any God-sent pastors in these last days of apostasy)
Usually there would be several meeting places for one local church. And each of these established assemblies should be overseen by at least one elder, all of them being under the authority of one bishop. A building in which believers meet for worship and fellowship should not be called a church. Also a local church should never be identified with the name of a man such as Paul, or Apollos, or Luther, or Calvin, or Menno.
The apostle Paul wrote, "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren...that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you?" (1 Cor. 1:10-13). "For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you...divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?" (1 Cor. 3:3-4).
This is a serious charge that the Spirit-inspired apostle made against the church in Corinth. The desire to be separated from the world is of God, but our identity should be that of Christians, and not as something else. In our day the apostle could say, "For while one saith I am of Luther or Calvin or Menno, are ye not carnal?"
To organize "churches" based on emphases of particular doctrines, or personal allegiance to the theology of an individual is contrary to Scripture. Many of God's people think that it is necessary to have an identity other than "Christian." But what does it mean to say one is, for example, a Baptist or a Mennonite? It means very little in this day of widespread apostasy. Sad to say, in America it also means very little to say one is a Christian. It doesn't cost anything to profess to be a Christian in America like it does in a few countries around the world. The radical element of the early Christians is nonexistent among most believers today.
References to particular local churches in Scripture are always in regard to the respective city where the brethren are located or to churches (plural) in a province. The Scriptures speak of the local church (singular) in a city, for example, as "the church...at Corinth," (1 Cor. 1:2) or "the church of Ephesus," (Rev. 2:1) or "the church in Sardis" (Rev. 3:1). There is never even a provincial name given to the churches (plural). They are referred to, for example, as "the churches of Galatia," or the "churches which are in Asia," rather than "the Galatian church," or "the Asian church" (Gal. 1:2; Rev. 1:4). So, a scriptural concept is either a local church (e.g., Acts 15:41; 1 Cor. 1:2; 4:17; Rev. 2:1) or the universal Church (e.g., Mat. 16:18; 1 Cor. 12:28; Eph. 1:22). It is unscriptural to organize Christians like, for example, The Presbyterian Church in America or The Eastern Pennsylvania Mennonite Church.
When ekklesia refers to an established local church, it means all the brethren residing within a given geographical area, namely a city. Timothy was the first bishop of Ephesus. And there was the uncommon situation of Titus being the bishop of the island of Crete where there were many cities under his oversight. Paul gave instruction to the latter to ordain elders in every city. In both cases the organization was one bishop over a number of elders giving leadership to all believers within a geographical area, that is, a city or an island. A scripturally organized local church, in the United States for example, (although there are none) could encompass a county within a state.
The sad state of the universal Church is obvious, not only because of worldliness, but because of so much division of the so-called local churches. Paul says it is because of carnality---it is of the flesh, not of the Holy Spirit. Protestantism, Presbyterianism, Methodism, Anabaptism, indeed, all denominationalism is not of God.
Parachurch organizations ("Christian" organizations with an identity distinct from a local church) are yet more divisions within the Church, and have no scriptural warrant. It is true that God has used some Christians in parachurch organizations; and some say that God uses denominations---but the same thing can be said of Satan (Job 1:8, 12; 2:3, 6).
The primary work of the Church is to evangelize the unsaved and make disciples of the converts until Jesus comes back. (The work also includes caring for widows, orphans, and others in need within the local congregation.) Among these disciples the Lord would raise up men for leadership and men to be sent out to found and establish other local churches. This was God's plan for the work of the Church since the first century.
It is not the Lord's will for His disciples to accumulate wealth far beyond their needs. Every brother should be involved in the work of the ministry, if he has been called, prepared, and "sent," or else labor to support the work of the ministry (while providing for the needs of himself and his family). There is not much else, if anything, for Christians to do. But most have "settled-in" and think that the primary objective is to raise a family and keep them comfortable in a hostile world. These things are important, but we need to check what our priorities should be for this dispensation according to the Scriptures.
Beloved brethren, it is too late. God has given up on the organized church. There are no scripturally organized local churches, nor are there any God-sent pastors today, and I believe the next thing for God's people is the refining fires of the Great Tribulation, the return of Christ, and the end of the world. Will He find faith on the earth when He comes? Probably very little. "And when he [the Antichrist] shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished" (Dan. 12:7). "And it was given unto him [the Antichrist] to make war with the saints, and to overcome them" (Rev. 13: 7).
God said of His people through the prophet Jeremiah, "The prophets prophesy lies, the priests [pastors] rule by their own authority [rather than being sent by God], and My people love it this way" (Jer. 5:31). May God have mercy on us.
DOM, the Bible says in 1 John 4:1, “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”
DOM, in your obedience to this portion of scripture, would you share with the forum, the results of the critique or testing that you conducted concerning the words of Harry Bethel?
I’m sure you have a great deal to share, especially with regards to Harry’s contention that: “women are not a part of the church” ‼️
Dave, with everything you and the OP post from articles written by men ABOUT the Scriptures, reveals that your theology is not directly revealed by the Holy Spirit,by from commentaries, articles and papers written by men.
When will the person posting and yourself write what the Holy Spirit has actually revealed to the 2 of you about the Word, instead of posting second hand info.
Be a Berean, search the Scriptures, not the books of the comments of men about the Word.
If you are not able, then that might show that the Holy Spirit is not in your life.
Quiz, once again I must patiently repeat some of what I’ve already posted.
Each time I post, I keep hoping that maybe this is the time you might receive a “miraculous understanding” sent from God that actually opens your mind.
So here we go again.
Quiz, if you want to find out what the Holy Spirit says to you, then read the Bible. But if you feel like you need to hear an audible voice from God—then read the Bible out loud.
Second, you need to stop listening to the UNholy spirit who keeps whispering stuff in your. Bad stuff like—the Holy Spirit is still inspiring people today with new revelation like the prophets of old and the apostles received.
Remember Satan quoted scripture out of context to Jesus in about the same way he misquotes scripture today making some men think they have the Holy Spirt telling them stuff in about the same way the prophets and apostles received revelation from the Holy Spirit.
As for quoting the articles of other men. It seems you might be a little jealous when others get quoted positively but you don’t. And worse, you’re ignoring the Holy Spirit!!!
Lastly, speaking of guidance and revelation from the real Holy Spirit—that you continue to ignore—lets hear what the Holy Spirit says for himself about men who teach here: Ephesians 4:11, “He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for works of ministry and to build up the body of Christ, 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ. 14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching and by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming.”
The Holy Spirit seems pretty clear, good men who teach say things. Sorry you keep missing it Quiz
Quiz, stop being “...tossed around...by every wind of teaching...”, especially concerning your false understanding of Holy Spirit revelation
Dave, 99.9999999% of what you have posted on this site is from a book by calvanists, or an article written by a person about what the Word of GOD Almighty says from 'gotquestions'.
You post a lot from website 'gotquestions' or from books written by calvanists.
When will you write what the Holy Spirit has revealed to you DIRECTLY from the Scriptures, not second hand from mens books,or other websites.
Maybe you can explain what the following Scrilture says, without using gotquestions, or a book by calvanists.
Matthew 7 verses 21-23
21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’
Quiz: Why does Messiah say the people doing the aforementioned works are 'Workers of LAWLESSNESS.
Matthew 14 verses 22-32
22 Immediately Jesus made the disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of Him to the other side, while He dismissed the crowds.
23 After He had sent them away, He went up on the mountain by Himself to pray. When evening came, He was there alone,
24 but the boat was already far from land, buffeted by the waves because the wind was against it.
25 During the fourth watch of the night, Jesus went out to them, walking on the sea.
26 When the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost!” they said, and cried out in fear.
27 But Jesus spoke up at once: “Take courage! It is I. Do not be afraid.”
28 “Lord, if it is You,” Peter replied, “command me to come to You on the water.”
29 “Come,” said Jesus.
Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water, and came toward Jesus.
30 But when he saw the strength of the wind, he was afraid, and beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!”
31Immediately Jesus reached out His hand and took hold of Peter. “You of little faith,” He said, “why did you doubt?”
32 And when they had climbed back into the boat, the wind died down.
33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God!”
Quiz: Dave in verse 31, Why does Messiah says Peter is a person of little faith.
The same verse,Messiah says to Peter 'WHY did you doubt'
What was Peter doubting.
You will not find the answer in gotquestions, or any books written by calvanists.
Quiz, I’ve quoted others besides Calvinists. I believe I quoted a Catholic once or twice and an atheist a time or two. Maybe a Southern Baptist and even a Baptist.
I suppose all that makes me a Balptist/Catholic/Atheist/Calvinist who sometimes quotes Southern Baptists
Quiz, you still don’t seem to realize that your arguments regularly refute themselves. Kinda makes my job easy, hehe!
For example, you believe the writings of men should be largely ignored simply because they are the writings of men. But since you assume to be a man that must make your writings the writings of a man.
Therefore, according to your own belief, I should ignore your writings because they are the writings of a man.
Hope that help! But if not, perhaps one day you will see how carefree of logic your arguments appear to the rational reader
Quiz, you might not be reading other people’s posts, especially the ones that refute your false understandings especially those that you claim come direct to you from the Holy Spirit.
I discussed some of those verses when I refuted your fallacious theories on repentance. You probably didn’t read the post or maybe the post was too painfully clear and you chose not to remember.
Anyway.
A fact, that you have yet to assimilate, is the fact the Bible IS the revelation of the Holy Spirit.
Another fact you keep avoiding, is the fact the Holy Spirit doesn’t contradict himself.
I need to say that because you’ve keep claiming the Holy Spirit reveals things directly to you, the trouble is, some of the stuff you claim is coming direct to you from the Holy Spirit actually contradicts what the Holy Spirit says in his holy written word.
This is so blatantly obvious that even a totally unsophisticated non-thinker like the TeddyBug, must conclude that your teachings are quite false, (see the TeddyBug comments in the Moderators Section under thread title, “How Does One Become a Moderator).
