Genesis 18:25 "Far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked. That be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
"Deut. 24:16, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."
Ezek. 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
Ezek.33:20, "Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways."
Jer. 31:29-30 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge."
"Thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil." Romans 2:5-9
�But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death� (James 1:14,15).
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
I believe Adams sin caused us to inherited sinful "propensities," "inclinations," "tendencies," and "death"....but not the punishment for his sin. We became a sinful race because of it....to use your "theology speak"...depraved, but not totally depraved. We lost our connection with God because of Adams sin. We now serve only ourselves...but God is using His influence to convict us of our fallen nature and save us by grace through faith.
===Not my words here, but interesting===
The Bible says that God will "judge the world in righteousness." Psalm 9:8. But could God judge the world and be righteous if this doctrine were true? What of the heathen who are lost without ever hearing the Gospel? If this doctrine is true, the heathen are born sinners and will of necessity live in sin because of an inherited sin nature, and when they die without ever hearing the Gospel and having a chance to be saved, they are doomed to the everlasting punishment of hell. Now if it is true that they are born sinners and cannot help but sin, can God justly send them to hell? Our God-given convictions of justice war against such an idea.
Those who believe in the doctrine of original sin cannot escape the conviction that justice requires that the heathen have a chance to hear the Gospel and be saved. They cannot escape the convictions that it is unjust that the heathen be lost without at least having the opportunity to hear the Gospel. They feel that the heathen are owed the opportunity to hear the Gospel so they might be saved.
But where did this idea come from that the heathen are owed the chance to be saved? I answer: It springs up irresistibly from the belief that men are not the authors of their own sin. It springs up from the belief that men are born with a sinful nature and cannot help but sin. So since they are born with a sinful nature and cannot help but sin, they cannot deserve hell without at least a chance to hear the Gospel and be saved. But the idea that any one is owed the chance to be saved is completely foreign to the Bible. God does not owe anyone the chance to be saved. He does not save anyone to satisfy justice. Jesus did not die for wicked men because he owed them a chance to be saved, but because of his love, mercy, and grace.
But those who believe in the doctrine of original sin find themselves with compelling convictions that contradict the fundamental Bible doctrine of God's righteousness in judging the heathen. The doctrine of original sin compels them to believe that it is not just for the heathen to be judged without a chance to be saved. And, in fact, if the doctrine of original sin were true, it would not be just to condemn the heathen without a chance to hear the Gospel and be saved. Moreover, if the doctrine of original sin were true, salvation would be on the grounds of justice rather than grace. The justice of God would require that God not only make sure that all mankind have a chance to hear the Gospel, but it would also require that God provide grace (or justice) of such a magnitude that ALL men(including heathens) would have to be certainly and irresistibly be saved.
The doctrine of original sin makes Jesus a sinner. If the doctrine of original sin is true, then Mary was also born a sinner; and if a sinner always produces another sinner, and if all those who are born of woman are born sinners, then there is no way to escape the conclusion that Jesus also was born a sinner. The advocates of original sin are also making Jesus a sinner because he partook of the same human nature as other men.
Jesus was a man. He was born of a woman. He was the seed of Abraham, the offspring of David, descended from Adam. Matt. 1:1, Rom. 1:3, Heb. 2:16, Rev. 22:16. The humanity of Christ is fully and unequivocably taught in the Bible, and to teach the doctrine that men are born sinners is to teach the blasphemy that "the man Christ Jesus" was born a sinner.
The Bible says, "Verily he took not on him the nature of angels but the seed of Abraham." Heb. 2:16. "In all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest." Heb. 2:17. "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same." Heb. 2:14. "For both he that sanctifieth and they that are sanctified are all one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren." Heb. 2:11. "For we have not an high priest which can not be touched with the feelings of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we, yet without sin." Heb. 4:15.
The Bible teaches that Christ was, in all respects, a real man, possessing both a human body and a human soul, and with all the attributes of a man. He was born of a woman. He was nourished and cared for by his mother, as other men are. He was circumcised according to the law of Moses. He was once an infant in knowledge, for he grew both in Wisdom and in stature. He hungered, he thirsted, he ate, he drank, he labored, he slept, he grew tired, and he lived and died like other men. He was recognized as a man and a Jew by other men. "Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be make like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." "For we have not an high priest which can not be touched with the feelings of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." "For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren." Heb. 2:17, 4:15, 2:11.
It is a serious error to deny the deity of Christ. One cannot be a Christian and deny his deity. John taught that it is equally serious to deny the humanity of Christ. "Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God." I John 4:2, 3. "Many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. II John 7.
The doctrine of Christ's human nature is fully attested in the Bible. Nevertheless, because of their belief that men are born sinners and that human nature or the flesh is inherently sinful, the defenders of the doctrine of original sin must deny in some way or another the real humanity of Christ and that he came in human flesh like other men. Phil. 2:6-8, I Tim. 3:16, Gal. 4:4, John 1:14, I John 4:2-3, II John 7.
A;As the result of adams sin,men are born in sin and by nature spiritually dead;therefore if they are to become gods children and enter his kingdom they must be born anew of the spirit.when adam was placed in the garden of eden,he was warned not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil on the threat of immediate spiritual death
genisis 2 16,17
adam disobeyed and ate the fruit,and brought spiritual death upon the race
romans 5;12
ephesians 2;1-3
colossians 213
psalm 51;5
psalm 58;3
as far as jesus born in sin because he was born a man,well thats just arminian nonsense,god is a law unto himself,he is the sovereign creator,he does not operate like we do,he is not subjected to the same things we are,what a strech!!!
If god can create the stars the sun the moon,earth....Im pretty sure he can make himself born without sin,complete lunacy!
"As is obvious, the real issue at stake between Calvinists and true Arminians is not whether man is capable of conjuring up faith, or procuring his own salvation by the power of his free will. Rather, it is whether or not God empowers all who hear the Gospel, or only the elect, to respond in faith when the Holy Spirit draws them to repentance. In other words, true Arminians believe that God's Spirit gives people the capacity to believe and exercise a truly "free will," even those who ultimately resist and reject Christ."
That, my friend....is a great point. This reason I'm bringing up is because this original sin doctrine is the base for Calvinist's whole belief system. There is so little biblical support for it that it's almost shameful...I'm not very surprised none of them have commented yet. There's one verse. And I honestly don't see how they can twist it into that...the verse itself clarifies it's point. Anyway...the whole point of this great battle between God and Satan, makes no sense if you remove free will. In part or in full or whatever. If God was the god they say He is, He would have destroyed Satan instantly, or at least take away his free will and make him repent. The battle is about our choices. And I know this issue is not a salvation issue....BUT it IS a salvation issue for unsaved people that can't see God real love for them because all they see is a demanding tyrant that doesn't love everyone equally. Because I believe everyone has a chance...it makes me angry to hear Christians say "oh, don't worry about them, they're lost anyway." I believe God wants every one to come to a knowledge of the truth. I believe Jesus died so that everyone could make the choice to serve him if they wanted. And I see twisted doctrines like this one...destroying the budding faith of a lot of people. I know that if I had to believe in a god like that I would choose not to serve him. No question. There's no point in even trying to serve Him. He'd make me do it whether I wanted to or not. That is not the God the bible talks about.
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1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, 7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; 8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, 9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.
10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things, 11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife, 12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination, 13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like, 15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife, 16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment, 17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live. 18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
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7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me. 8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live? 11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. 13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. 14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; 15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. 18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. 19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. 20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.
I'm anxious to hear how they explain away these verses. "oh, he's only talking to Israel." Really? God's chosen people can fall if they choose to sin? "oh, the people he's talking about were lost already." Really? The righteous are lost? The wicked can turn from their evil ways?
And original sin? Says here that sin is not passed down. It even says we shouldn't say it.
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Why does God say this? Because He is just and fair. Not willing that any should perish.
Whoa...um...dude...I think you didn't read that post....I'm pretty sure you just denied that Jesus came in the flesh. You're right. God isn't subject to what we are....but Jesus made himself like us...on purpose...what does that tell me? There couldn't be original sin.
:stop:"as far as jesus born in sin because he was born a man,well thats just arminian nonsense,god is a law unto himself,he is the sovereign creator,he does not operate like we do,he is not subjected to the same things we are,what a strech!!!":stop:
"For we have not an high priest which can not be touched with the feelings of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we, yet without sin."
:stop:"If god can create the stars the sun the moon,earth....Im pretty sure he can make himself born without sin,complete lunacy!":stop:
"Verily he took not on him the nature of angels but the seed of Abraham."
But you're kinda right, I don't believe God needed to create Himself without sin...because I don't believe in original sin. Makes it very simple. And it agrees with the bible. Original sin came out of the catholic church. Probably to make money. If the grace of God is freely given...then people don't need to buy indulgences! "Hey! You're responsible for a 6,000 year old sin! That'll be 100 bucks!"
"The doctrine of original sin was first developed in second-century Bishop of Lyon Irenaeus's struggle against Gnosticism. The Greek Fathers emphasized the cosmic dimension of the Fall, namely that since Adam human beings are born into a fallen world, but held fast to belief that man, though fallen, is free. It was in the West that precise definition of the doctrine arose. Augustine of Hippo taught that original sin was physically transmitted from parent to child through the concupiscence (roughly, lust) that accompanied sexual reproduction, weakening the will and making humanity a massa damnata (mass of perdition, condemned crowd). In Augustine's view (termed "Realism"), all of humanity was really present in Adam when he sinned, and therefore all have sinned. Original sin, according to Augustine, consists of the guilt of Adam which all human beings inherit. As sinners, human beings are utterly depraved in nature, lack the freedom to do good, and cannot respond to the will of God without divine grace. Grace is irresistible, results in conversion, and leads to perseverance."
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King James Bible
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
Many people deny the doctrines of grace,especially the free and undeserved election of beleivers,but it is irrefutable.They imagine that god makes distinctions according to merit;from foreknowledge he gives the adoption of sons to the worthy and condemns those who are bent on evil.this veiw obscures the doctrine of election and gives it a different origin.It has had a lot of support in every generation.But the truth of god is too clear and sure to be shaken by citing human authorities.some people,ignorant of scripture,attack sound doctrine with intolerable anger and falsehoods.Because god chooses some,and rejects others,they argue with him.But since the facts are true,then what is the point of arguing with god?God has always been free to shower his grace on whomever he wants to.Men might as well question why they are superior to cats and dogs!Only god knows the reasons.He could have made us dogs or worms or.....ect.Do they think the lower animals protest to god about making them a worm,or a snail?Just as men enjoy privlige without merit,so god also distributes favor according to his wishes...When paul states that we were chosen in christ before the foundation of the world(eph. 1;4)
He makes it clear that there is no regard for our own worth.We were adopted into our heavenly inheretance in christ because in ourselves we were incapable of attaining it!
elsewhere he exhorts the collossians to give thanks that they had been made fit to share in the inheretance of the saints(col.1;12) If election precedes the divine grace,wich makes us fit for immortal life,what does god see in us to persuade him to elect us?Another passage makes this even clearer.god "chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ,In accordance with his pleasure and will"(Ephesians 1;4-5)Here gods pleasure is put in contrast to any possible worth in us.
I dont know how anyone can get any other possible meaning out of these phrases wich by the way,the bible is chocked full of!The truth is.........YOU CANT!!!!!!NOT POSSIBLE!
I agree, I do think we were predestined as christians...just not the way your belief says we are. I believe God influences us. He knows our hearts so He's like "Ok...if I do this and this...Mark will do this...and then if I do this...he'll do that...so instead....I'll do this! Which will convict him of his guilt and lead him to Me!" I think it's interesting the the bible uses the word "mold" when it's talking about the clay. It's not "POOF! There's a pot fitted for destruction." It's "mold"(influence?)...fire(test of faith?), maybe some paint" and there's a pot for righteousness. My beliefs don't eliminate those verses. I just look at the bible and see too much proof of free will, so I think..."hmmm....compare scripture with scripture. Those other scriptures must be misinterpreted/twisted". And the bible even says that Paul is easy to twist. Anyway...
"But the truth of god is too clear and sure to be shaken by citing human authorities.some people,ignorant of scripture,attack sound doctrine with intolerable anger and falsehoods."
Look...I don't study anything but the bible. I don't study Calvin, I don't study Ellen White, not Luther, not Augustine...just the Bible. I see it in the Bible. I don't have too many preconceived ideas. In fact, this predestination thing had been interesting to me for awhile. I was looking at it and thinking..."hmm...this might be true....I need to study about it." But the more I study, the more I see holes in it. Honestly, it sounded good at first. It sounded like a good way to get rid of the guilt I'd been feeling for a long time. But then I saw it was just false assurance. When you look at the beliefs it is based on it sounds really bad...and unbiblical, in my opinion. Besides, when you really think about it, you have even less assurance then I do. I believe that as long as I have faith, as long as I love God with all my heart...then I will be saved at the end...along with anyone else that wants to love God. You believe that you're already saved. True? But you also believe the someone could be going along, doing good stuff, loving God...and then BAM! They fall away. And you say, "oh, they weren't really saved, they were the rocky ground". And then I want to know...how do you know you're saved? Maybe you're one of these false Christians? You really have less assurance then me. You would never see it coming. But back to the subject. Yes, I believe we were chosen before the foundation of the world. But I don't see how that takes away our choice. I wish I could explain it better. But thanks to you guys, I am now at peace with what I believe. It is crystal clear...and it's beautiful. To see God's wisdom, love, and perfect judgment throughout history. I just wish you could see it. Luther, Calvin, Huss...all reformers...but we're still being reformed now. To say you have everything you need to know from a guy that lived 500 years ago isn't a good idea. Especially one that's fresh from the catholic church. Calvin was influenced by the Augustinian tradition, which led him to expound the doctrine of predestination and the absolute sovereignty of God in salvation. Didn't he also have someone burnt at the stake? While I respect him as a reformer...I don't think he had all truth...obviously. Even in the last days we will be being reformed.
Rev. 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
What if predestination and free will were both an absolute fact? What makes those that are predestined any more special? You have to have a complete understanding on why we're here, on the earth, in the flesh, in the first place. It has everything to do with Satan's first rebellion, and guess what...me and you as well as everybody else were there, and we chose a side...God or Satan. Some chose God and some chose Satan (A third of heaven). To fully understand the bible you really need to have a Strong's concordance and a Companion's Bible. It's pretty much like this...if you think Eve ate an apple in the Garden of Eden, you're wrong.
