Thread: IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
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IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 23 Aug, 2009 09:41 AM
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
The answer as you will shortly learn, is "NO!"
There has been much debate over the tongues of what must be referred to a "modern pentecostalism!" We are not going to conduct an indepth exhaustive exposition of the subject of tongues, at this point, for it is not necessary to prove this one point, and that is, "modern pentecostals cannot all speak with 'THE GIFT OF TONGUES!'"
Please, allow me to explain.
First of all, I was in what may be termed "a pentecostal church," for about 11 years, so I know all about the subject of tongues, and that the scripture is VERY CLEAR about the spiritual gifts, and that "the tongues" that all pentecostals are encouraged to get, in order to demonstrate that one is "filled with the spirit," cannot be biblical, or valid.
Here is the passage Paul wrote, when he was confronted with the same, "so-called pentecostals," then, as we are now. There were men who claimed to represent the Holy Spirit, but something was very wrong with their tongues, as it is still the case, today. So-called charismatic or spirit-filled churches were springing up, claiming that they were pentecostals, with the gifts of the spirit; and so Paul addressed the administration of the gifts of the Spirit, and as you are about to learn, Paul shotdown their claims, saying that there was no such thing as everyone having the gift of tongues, at the same time.
"NOW THERE ARE DIVERSITIES OF GIFTS, BUT THE SAME SPIRIT. AND THERE ARE DIFFERENCES OF ADMINISTRATION, BUT THE SAME LORD. AND THERE ARE DIVERSITIES OF OPERATIONS, BUT IT IS THE SAME GOD WHICH WORKETH ALL IN ALL. BUT THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SPIRIT IS GIVEN TO EVERY MAN TO PROFIT WITHAL. FOR TO ONE IS GIVEN BY THE SPIRIT THE WORD OF WISDOM; TO ANOTHER THE WORD OF KNOWLEDGE; TO ANOTHER FAITH BY THE SAME SPIRIT; TO ANOTHER THE GIFTS OF HEALING; TO ANOTHER THE WORKINGS OF MIRACLES; TO ANOTHER PROPHECY; TO ANOTHER DISCERNING OF SPIRITS; TO ANOTHER DIVERS KINDS OF TONGUES; TO ANOTHER THE INTERPRETATION OF TONGUES: BUT ALL THESE WORKETH THAT ONE AND SELFSAME SPIRIT, DIVIDING TO EVERY MAN SEVERALLY AS HE WILLS!" [I Cor 12:4-11]
The GIFT OF TONGUES, was administered, SEVERALLY as the Spirit was want to do, therefore, it was NEVER GIVEN TO ALL BELIEVERS - in any church, which is what the pentecostals, each claim they possessed, in Paul's day, in every church, and that they still claim to this day!
So, you see, not all pentecostals cant have the same gift, for they were never adminstered in such a way!
Not all pentecostals are in fact, even true believers, as is evident by this passage where Jesus Christ, Himself says: "NOT EVERY ONE THAT SAITH UNTO ME, LORD, WILL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN;BUT HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN. MANY WILL SAY TO ME IN THAT DAY, LORD, LORD, HAVE WE NOT PROPHESIED IN THY NAME? AND IN THY NAME CAST OUT DEVILS? AND IN THY NAME DONE MANY WONDERFUL WORKS? AND I WILL PROFESS UNTO THEM, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY!" [Matt 7:21-23]
Please notice that Jesus did not say that He would tell them to "depart because we had a problem," or because "you backslid"; He said that He will tell them that He "NEVER KNEW THEM!" For they are not of God, and their claims to "the gifts of the Spirit," are "iniquity," to Him, and His Father, which is in heaven!
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 24 Aug, 2009 03:32 PM
"And these signs will accompany those that believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in NEW TONGUES; ..." (Mark 16:17)
"Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, 'Jesus be cursed,' and no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor 12:3)
"I would like every one of you to speak in tongues" (1 Cor 14:5)
"We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express." (Rom 8:26)
ACTS 19:2-7 (excerpted):
"There he found some disciples and asked them, 'Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?'
They answered, 'No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.' So Paul asked, 'Then what baptism did you receive?''John's baptism,' they replied. ...
On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied"
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 24 Aug, 2009 08:25 PM
Just a question.. verse which you have quoted from 1 corinthians 14:5 is out of context. Paul actually says ..
"Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy"
So is not Paul saying that he would rather everyone prophesy, rather than speak in tongues?? So why the stress on Tongues and not on prophesy and say that Tongues is a sign for all believers?? Why not Prophesy??
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 24 Aug, 2009 08:36 PM
Also Mark 16:17 gives a set of signs, not just tongues, so why again the stress on tongues alone?
Also all conversions in the bible itself was not followed by speaking in tongues.
When Philip baptises the Eunuch, he did not speak in tongues or give any other sign. Acts 8.
Plus there are numerous other conversions mentioned in the Bible, but tongues following baptism as a sign is mentioned only 3 times. Besides there is no reference in the Bible that all NT believers spoke in tongues. Therefore there is no way to conclude that tongues is a sign for every believer.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 24 Aug, 2009 09:15 PM
Hello donpjt,
My emphasis on tongues should be obvious. Ole Cattle and I are responding as Pentecostals to the unbiblical attack on tongues by this poster. The scriptures are clear that tongues are intended for believers and are not something that just happened "back then."
The same applies to prophecy but you can't ignore that he said he wishes all men to speak in tongues. Nor can you ignore that it says that all who believe will speak in new tongues. Prophecy is not greater than tongues for the believer but is more helpful to the congregation and that is his point.
So, no, it is not "out of context" as you say but you are correct that I am making an emphasis and the emphasis is a response to this thread which in turn emphasizes tongues - though it is probable that ecclesia would also deny prophecy and other gifts.
Now as to your other attack. Let us be clear that the passage quoted from Acts was a long one regarding the confusion over the difference of the baptism of water and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This passage is NOT about conversion - they were already believers - it is about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. These believers - twelve in all - did not even KNOW that there was such a thing as a Holy Spirit!
Remember that Christ taught us in John that He would send the Comforter - and the word Comforter is not just theory but something that implies EXPERIENCE. We are to FEEL the power of the Holy Spirit as fire. It is not just some theoretical doctrine. And in fact, I have experienced this as have millions of Pentecostals.
Also, how many times does scripture have to say something for it to be true? So it does not mention the tongues every time? This is a poor argument. It is the logical fallacy of Argument From Silence.
We do know that EVERY single christian that was in the Upper Room at Pentecost was baptised in the Holy Spirit with tongues of fire. We do know that tongues was very prevalent in the church at Corinth but that Corinth is singled out because of a lot of disorder, division, and immaturity, not just over the gifts but about almost everything. Just because Paul doesn't talk about tongues in other epistles to other churches doesn't mean other Christians weren't speaking in tongues. Again, that would be the argument from silence and is a logical fallacy.
In conclusion, I will let scripture speak for itself. Pray about it and seek wisdom. Don't simply rely on dogma. I went to a Calvinist Bible college and believed as you did once but when it happens to you there is no denying it anymore.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 24 Aug, 2009 09:59 PM
For me there is only one answer to the question which the poster has asked, he said is the gift of tongues of modern Pentecostalism Biblical, and for this it is pretty easy to find out. As you referenced the scripture, for your support of showing out what the Holy Spirit did, I want to point out one common thing when the Holy Spirit worked mightily. You can see that there are 2 - 3 eras when the Holy Spirit worked mightily. One was in the first few centuries, then it was in the time of reformation and the following centuries, And the Holy Spirit's work was very evident, And what I have to tell you, that this is a sign of the Holy Spirit's presence, that there are true conversions, that people give their life truly to God. In the first few centuries, when the Holy Spirit was very active, people died for Christ in millions, and even then millions were converted enough proof that the Holy Spirit was working mightily.
Then we come to the reformation, no tongues, hardly any manifestations as in the first century, but a lot of conversion, and that too by the millions. People were persecuted just as badly as in the first centuries, but Christians still grew. God's word became mighty and strong through Luther, Calvin, and other reformers., Still no external manifestations, but no denial that the Holy Spirit was at work. And In the 17th and 18 century, missions became so great that it was like the first century, the Gospel spread to every part of the world, so many people went to all parts of the world and suffered and died for Christs sake, more than enough proof for the Holy Spirit at work. No manifestations of tongues or any importance on it.
So the pattern of the work of the Holy Spirit is that people truly giving their life to Christ, suffering for Christ, willing to forsake everything, true conversions by the millions. And thats the real sign that the Holy Spirit is at work.
Now look at Today, we say we have tongues, but what about the people who claim to be Christians and have tongues and all spiritual gifts? Prosperity Gospel, Materialism, fake healings. Hiding their income, show of power, lavishness, not being a faithful steward of money and what about Real Conversions! Hardly any? I still have to say that majority of the missionaries are sent out by non pentecostal churches today than pentecostal and charismatic churches, though they are larger in number. And my observation is that if the Holy Spirit is active in todays church even as much as people claim to be we would have seen a world revival much greater than what we had in the earlier centuries, But we hardly have any glimpse of it, So the logical conclusion is that the manifestations which people claim to be of the Spirit are not real, because the Gospel is not spoken, people are exalted more than God and there are no real conversions!! So it not hard to judge whether the Holy Spirit is actively at work or not or whether its just the people claiming something.
Coming back to the argument, i said the same thing, that just because 3 times it is mentioned, you cannot conclude with certainty that that is the norm, you have said that if it did not mention that they spoke in tongues it did not mean it was the norm. So I say the same thing, if its only mentioned 3 times you cannot conclude it happened everytime. And besides About the Eunuch, he heard the gospel and he went away rejoicing, does not mean he did not get the Holy Spirit? And then where did his joy come from?
Plus, how do you know that you have the Holy Spirit, by Tongues or by the fruits? (Galatians 5:22-25 NIV) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
So if a person speaks in tongues but does not have these fruits, does it mean the person has the Holy Spirit? And does everyone who claim to speak in tongues have these fruits? Jesus Christ himself said, that it is not the signs or what a person has done, but by his fruits that we know if he is a true believer, so tongues being the sign of all true believers is not there in the Bible.
And lastly how do we know that we are true believers, The signs which are given of true believers are this..
The books of 1 and 2 John also give you a list of things to look out for �so that you may know that you have eternal life.� (1 John 5:13)
* You will not walk in darkness. If you do, then you do not practice or live by the truth (1 John 1:6)
* You will have fellowship with other christians (1 John 1:7)
* You recognise your sinful nature (1 John 1:8,10)
* You confess your sins (1 John 1:9)
* You obey and keep his commandments (1 John 2:3,5 ,1 John 3:24, 1 John 5:2)
* You will not hate your brother or sister but love them (1 John 2:9,11 , 1 John 3:10 and 1 John 4:7-8,12-13, 20-21, 2 John 1:5)
* You will not love the world or the things of the world (1 John 2:15)
* You will do the will of God (1 John 2:17)
* You believe the divinity of Jesus Christ and that he has come in the flesh (1 John 2:22 and 1 John 4:2-4,15, 2 John 1:7)
* Biblical truth will be abiding in you (1 John 2:24)
* You understand the righteousnes of Christ (1 John 2:29)
* You will be practicing righteousness (1 John 2:29)
* You will not habitually practice sin (1 John 3:8,9, 1 John 5:18 )
* You will have compassion for those in need (1 John 3:17)
* You believe that Jesus is the Christ and is the Son of God (1 John 5:1)
* You abide in the doctrine of Christ (2 John 1:9)
Not one of them mentions tongues being the sign of a true believer, So giving the assurance that a person is a true believer just because he can speak in tongues is a false assurance not found in the Bible.
And earlier I was a charismatic who followed most of the current charismatic preachers closely, but when I examined their teachings with the word of God I found out that they were inconsistent with the Scripture and the more I read the Bible the more the Doctrines of Grace stand out for me. So I've also been and experienced what the charismatics call the manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 24 Aug, 2009 10:09 PM
And sorry if I missed the whole point, my whole point is not at all whether there is tongues today or not, but my whole point is that speaking and giving importance to tongues is not getting us anywhere, we don't have the fruits if the Holy Spirit and so we should rather seek God more earnestly and get his grace to live our lives for him completely and pray for revival on earth rather than judging that because we have tongues we are having the Holy Spirit in abundance. I say our fruits and our lives prove that there is hardly any control of the Holy Spirit in our lives. What would Paul say if he saw todays Christians, His letter to corinthians would be nothing compared to what he would have had to say to us. He has enough grounds to even conclude that the people who claim to be Christians are hardly even real Christians!
So tongues is not the Issue, whether we live our lives for Christ truly and whether we are fruitful for him and whether we love him are the real Issues, and if our answer to all of these are no or if we are in doubt, then do you think that when Christ asks what you did for him you can answer him that you spoke in tongues and so you were a believer?? Christ's answer would be "Depart ye workers of lawlessness, I never knew you" because we would have enough of our lives to prove our lawlessness
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 25 Aug, 2009 06:04 AM
Dear kdhny11
"And these signs will accompany those that believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in NEW TONGUES; ..."
(Mark 16:17)
When it says in My name, clearly it means that only when God say you can speak then only you can speak (this is written and well explained in Ezekiel 13). Then, these gifts are not meant for everyone. And not every Christians have the other gifts mentioned here. Therefore there is no reason to say that tongue speaking is meant for every Christian.
"Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, 'Jesus be cursed,' and no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor 12:3)
(I am writing these with the understanding that speaking in tongue means speaking in different tongue.) Then those who speak by the Spirit of Devil shall curse Jesus. Since we cannot understand a different tongue as often seen practiced nowadays, how do we know that it is not cursing Jesus. I have heard report that some of this tongue actually are cursing Jesus, hence from the devil. I need to make one thing clear, this verse actually did not say it is speaking in different tongue, therefore there is no reason to speculate it is.
"I would like every one of you to speak in tongues" (1 Cor 14:5)
Perfectly means I would like but I can't because God had not told you all to speak. Compare with Mark 16:17.
"We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express." (Rom 8:26)
Groans, not a new language or tongue. We groan only when we mourn, we mourn because we have realized we have sin. How do we know we have sin? because of the Holy Spirit as Jesus pointed it out clearly, the coming of Holy Spirit is to teach us and to remember His teachings (John 14:26). Once we remember His teachings then we will know that we sin and mourn, then we shall be comforted (Matt. 5:4). That's why Holy Spirit is also known as the Comforter. You did not put in the first part of the verse which said "Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses." Compare with Matt. 6:9-13 and you will see that this scripture cannot be contradictory with the Lord's prayer.
ACTS 19:2-7 (excerpted):
If you remember Matthew 28:19: ...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. So since this people had not been baptized in such manner and have not heard the Gospel, they cannot be considered to be a Christians. This come to the question: When did the baptism of Holy Spirit occur? How would you answer that?
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 25 Aug, 2009 07:09 AM
Just a few things i would like to add to this discussion...
1) The gift of tongues IS clearly biblical - Mark 16:17, Acts 2:4, Acts 10:46, Acts 19:6, 1 Corinthians 12:10, 1 Corinthians 12:28-30, 1 Corinthians 13:1, 1 Corinthians 14:5-6, 18, 22-23, 39.
2) The gift of tongues IS available to everyone, but not necessarily everyone will receive it.
3) Whether or not you speak in tongues has nothing to do with your salvation.
4) The gift of tongues is largely intended to be a private thing between you and God. There are times when it can be public for the edification of the church, but generally only if there is an interpretation.
5) Tongues is a GIFT, not a right.
6) Just as our great God is unchanging, the same yesterday, today and forever, so are his gifts. If it was available to the Church in the Bible then it is available to us today.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 25 Aug, 2009 12:55 PM
dear proudly, i do agree with your post.. the only little thing different id add is tongues in the church is only done so with an intrepreter.. least in the churches ive been to..
