dear folks, as i seen a topic in the young adults forum and well i didnt wanna write in there as im over the age limit hehe.. i thought id bring this topic to here. it was implied that GOD did not appoint the authority in the churches.. but yet HE did appoint the leaders there. also the elders are there to help look after the flock as well. the deacons etc.. something we should all remember when sitting in the congregation is we were all led there to the church.. but some were also appointed there by GOD. and these folks do the best they can do to follow what GOD places in their hearts... but now as your pastor and church leaders are only human and can make mistakes.. i think its ok to question whether your church is right for you.. but i dont believe in publically displaying your displeasure of your church leaders.. to me thats just wrong.. youre goin above your authority over someone who really has been given the authority.. go talk to the pastor himself..
and this displeasure comes from the fact they seperate the guys from the gals at times and they dont get a chance to mingle persay.. well to that i say the church is not there for your socializing. its there for you to be fed the word of GOD. if you wanna socialize do so after the service.. or ask em out or somethin.. i mean you can find you a good woman or a good man there thats true.. but i surely hope thats not the reason youre goin to church there.. if you dont like the way things are bein run go somewhere else.. but dont stay and talk and split the congregatin.. i ask you did GOD tell you to do that?
ephesians 4:11- 12 11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ
1 corinthians 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
Perfect. My response. You're there to learn about Christ. Is it bad to remove distraction then, including things that are more entertaining than educating?
cattleman, thanks for bringing it to us. this is a good subject matter to discuss. i agree with everything you said. at my old church, men and women can sit together; no cell phone use or texting allowed. before each sermon, the pastor reminds us to clear our minds from anything (worries, troubles, concerns, etc.) that may distract you. for he has a message from the Lord and does not want you to miss out on the blessing. he also asks to make sure we bring our bibles so we can read along the scriptures. he encourages to take notes as well. we are there to praise & worship Jesus Christ, to be fed the Word of God. that is the only reason to be there.
Hey Cattle, thanks for opening up this subset of the other topic ;-)
I'd encourage everyone to check out my blog to see a little more the discussion of the various offices mentioned in Ephesians 4:11
The bottom line is that we're all priests with one High Priest (that's Jesus the Christ if one missed it). Jesus makes it very clear that anyone who wants a high rank (so to speak) must be the servant of all.
Peter reiterates this point by saying that we do not lord it over one another as the pagans do.
Paul goes on in describing the gifts of the spirit and lets us know in no uncertain terms that we're all part of Jesus Christ's body; therefore, no part is greater or lesser than any other.
In Revelation, one of the few times we hear of people that Jesus hated, we are told Jesus hates the Nikolations. Roughly translated from the Greek, Nikolation are 'those who conquor the people'; their great sin was leading people to act wickedly and the backing it up with an authority of their own making.
And as I also said, Christians are only called to recognize God's authority in Scripture. Anything a preacher or guest speak or any other manner of person tells you that doesn't fall in line with the Scriptures is wicked. It doesn't matter if it's something as seemingly benign as ending world hunger. Paul puts it differently in saying that if any man comes and preaches something other than Christ crucified, count him accursed. Have no part in the lofty schemes of wicked men and women.
For everyone bristling right now, Paul also tells us the preacher is worthy of wages and else where worthy of respect. Respect for a man does not mean give him authority, for there is only One Who holds authority over you, and He has never shared this authority.
Speaking again, Jesus commanded us to call no man "abba" or spiritual leader. Why would Jesus say this if He also intended to put surrogates over you? Or look again to Jesus last words with Peter "Feed my sheep". Whose sheep was he to feed? Jesus sheep. What food? Look to the 40 days of temptation at Jesus quote from Deuteronomy, man shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord.
What then do we make of Ephesians 4:11? Look back to Ephesians 2:10. Every Christian is called to walk in the good works that God has prepared in advance for him. Ephesians 4:11 tell us who can train us and help us to be equipped. What equipping? Paul quotes Isaiah at the end of the epistle in telling us to put on the full armor of God. If being held separate is one of the pieces of armor, then these wicked men are righteous and I a blasphemer; otherwise, these wicked men are heretics who pervert the word of God with lofty goals like the Judiazers of Galatians.
Make no mistake, the closer we get to the end times, the more self appointed leaders you'll find in churches. More men who will tickle the ears of their congregations. Men who will turn cold the hearts of the fellowship. Men who will preach lofty ideas that have the appearance of wisdom, so long as your eyes are set on the flesh.
If the Lord has wanted you ignorant of this, He would not have told you in the Scriptures. Do you cry foul that the Gospel speaks so? Paul, when speaking to the high priest in Jerusalem did not magnify that man's position but scoffed that anyone but Jesus was High Priest; or do you think Paul, trained as a pharisee, lacked the knowledge or discernment to know the high priest by sight without having known the man personally? Do any of, untrained as each of you may be, lack the discernment to know who is your pastor when he stands up to preach?
Here again, if Paul could speak so lowly to the high priest in Jerusalem and yet call you to honor authority, where is the disconnect? Was Paul a liar? Or was the high priest not over Paul?
Hear again, of then ten commandments, the Lord says, honor your father and your mother. Yet Paul writes, honor your father and mother in Lord. In everything you do, do all things for the glory of God.
Do you honor God through scourging yourself? Through vows? Through forced poverty? Never and no.
The Lord does us clearly in Micah 6:8 that the Lord requires you to do justice, love kindly, and walk humbly with God. Or again David assures us that the Lord does not require the fat of lambs but a contrite and penitent heart.
If by choice some do so, are they in sin? No. However, when your pastor because of a weakness in his conscience commands you to obey a new ritual, he has sinned against you. Romans 14 speaks to this. It's as sinful as if your pastor were to tell you you're not allowed to recognize Easter because his weak conscience sees it as idolatry even though you saw it as a celebration of both the passover and the resurrection. He is not in sin not to observe it himself, but each slave is accountable to his own master. Therefore he presumes too much to give you an edict if the edict is not from God in Scripture.
(For some of you, you'll readily see the allusion weaved through this response. For others, ask where in Scripture my source is. If I've erred, correct me; but do not take lightly this heresy preached in our churches. For again, Paul warns us to run the race in such a way as to win the prize; and again he tells us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. The author of Hebrews takes it a step further ans says it's a fearful thing to fall into the hand of the Living God.)
dear folks, CHRIST is the head of the church... HE is the final authority there...
it seems your complaints are about male and female being seperated in some of the studies..
that doesnt go against any of the commandments ..
there has to be an order in the church..and there is authority there.. if not you could have anyone come in and act any way they want and disrupt the services..
even the elders are given authority..
1 peter 5:1-3 The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: 2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; 3 nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock;
1 peter 5:5 5 Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for
"God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble."
lets take a closer look at verse 2 it says
Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, and in verse 3 over those entrusted to you,
servin as overseers and sheperding the flock, over those entrusted to you. now that should be enuff for you to see these people were called to be shepperds ,overseers of the flocks entrusted to them..
then in verse 5 we see that the younger people are to submit yourselves to the elders.. why would one need to submit to anyone if there is no authority.. ? its because the elders have been called to shepperd and oversee the flock that has been entrusted to them..
see folks your pastors ,elders, decons ,bishops, teachers ,those put in charge of a ministry inside the church were all called or placed there..to shepperd and oversee a flock that has been entrusted to them.. JESUS is the head of the church.. then you have the servents of CHRIST that were called or placed there. so since theyre serving CHRIST and submitted theirself to CHRIST then unless they are going against the commands of GOD or the word of GOD, you are expected to follow.
but if you dont like how theyre doin things then leave. dont stick around and sow discord amongst the brethren... as yawl know the bible tells us not to do that..
seems folks tend to think these days that the church is there to entertain them or be a place to mingle and seek out a date to cater to their needs or wants.. .. we tend to forget what the importance of church is.. a place where hopefully the lost souls will reach out and find salvation, a place of baptism, a place where folks will hear the WORD OF GOD and itll sting em enuff to make em repent and turn from their ways.. to rededicate their lifes to GOD , to be a reminder to the good folks to stay good.. a place to show love to your brethren, a house of prayer, to take something home from each message, to help those less fortunate.. good fellowship.. and one can fellowship and mingle before and after the service.. so dont worry so much about bein seperated at times.
I think it's important to point out that the church is not a place but the church is the body of believers.
One of the major problems with the church today is the concept of ministers and "lay" people
In the Old testiment you had a Levitical priesthood and then you had everyone else. But the veil has been torn in two my friends.
I have no priest before me. I am as much called to the ministry as any preacher, missionary or evangelist that walks this earth today. The church is one body and may parts but there is no room for laymen and laywomen.
All who have accepted Christ have some spiritual gifts and are therefore, to be ministers for Christ.
Yes the scripture does talk about leadership. If anyone wants to be a leader, he should prove himself in the church and then the elders should lay hands on him and make him an equal. It doesn't mean he gets to quit his job and give the sermon every sunday. It means he is qualified and willing to take a place of leadership in the church and is equal with the other elders/overseers.
This concept of someone going to seminary or bible college and then interviewing for church positions is not scriptural at all. If he can pass the interview and give a good sample sermon or two. He goes from being a visitor to being head of a congregation he doesn't know and that doesn't know him and he's taking a cut of the tithe.
Part of the reason of that is because people in the church are too scared to step up and fill the pulpit themselves. And another part of the reason is that the church is not training it's congregation to be ministers. If someone feels called to lead, he's expected to go to seminary and get a little piece of paper that says he's "ordained"
The church should be training every member to be a minister because, that is what they are. If a preacher really wants to preach, he should go to a bar and start sharing the gospel. The christians need TEACHING, the non-christians need the preaching.
i agree we should go direct to the pastor with any disagreement and always with respect.but i do not feel the church is a building in fact i know it is not and the Holy Spirit is the guide that will leed you and the guide that will keep you when in fact you come to the right one.but never take for granted that a man who is wearing a title is given that from God himself for there are many out there who fit the wolf in sheeps clothing description.but as you pointed out we are all free to go elsewhere for the bottom line is it's God we seek not a pastor. be blessed my brother
