The Bible, the justice system and common sense dictates a person cannot testify on their own behalf. Therefore the Bible cannot testify on its own behalf.------------------------------ Since the New Testament did not exist at the time of its own writing, it is impossible for anything in the New Testament to testify about the New Testament. ----------------------------------- The Bible isn't a Book, but a collection of books by different authors. Therefore authors may testify for another book as long as they weren't the author of that book------------------- Where legitimate testimony exists, what is being testified to? For example Psalm 119 may testify about Torah; "the word is perfect" but that does not equate to inerrant, but rather, perfect for the job it is intended for.----------------------------
The bottom line is the Bible is a extremely valuable written record by and about the relationship with God.our physical and spiritual ancestors had. The Bible is a God inspired tool designed to bring us into relationship with the "Living Word" rather than bring us into relationship with a Paper Pope.
However Paul's advice should stand or fall on its own, rather than being declared words from the lips of God and therefore "New Commandments"
Paul's advice is sound, but not a New Commandment from God.
"Who made Paul's words into God's word for all churches for all time????"
**WE ARE BORN AGAIN THROUGH THE LIVING AND ENDURING WORD OF GOD** 1 Peter 1:23
Deuteronomy 18:17-19: The Lord said to Moses, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among your fellow Israelites, and I will put My words in His mouth. He will tell them **EVERYTHING** I command Him. I Myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to My words that the Prophet speaks in My name!!"
John 14:21-24: Jesus says, "Whoever has My commands and keeps them is the one who loves Me... Anyone who loves Me will obey My teaching, My Father will love them, and We will come to them and make Our home with them.. Anyone who does not love Me will not obey My teaching. These words you hear are not My own; they belong to the Father who sent Me!" {See Deut 18:17-19 above}
Acts 5:32: We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given **TO THOSE WHO OBEY HIM**!"
Luke 6:46-49: Jesus says, "As for everyone who comes to Me and hears **MY WORDS** and **PUTS THEM INTO PRACTICE**. I will show you what they are like. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid foundation on rock. When the flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears **MY WORDS** and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete!"
I Peter 1:23-25: You have been **BORN AGAIN THROUGH THE LIVING AND ENDURING **WORD OF GOD**!! All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field, the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the **WORD OF THE LORD STANDS FOREVER**. And this is the **WORD** that was preached to you.
Matthew 24:35: Jesus says, Heaven and earth will pass away, but **MY WORDS WILL NEVER PASS AWAY**!"
I John 2:3-5: We know we have come to know Him {Jesus} if we obey His commands. The man who says, "I know Him," but does not do what He commands is a liar and the truth is not in him. But if anyone **OBEYS HIS WORD**, God's love is truly made complete in him!
Matthew 4:4: Jesus says, "Man does not live on bread alone, but on **EVERY WORD FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD**!"
Luke 8:15: Jesus says, "But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the **WORD**, retain it, and by perseverance produce a crop."
John 17:17: Jesus prays to His Father, "Sanctify them by the Truth, **YOUR WORD IS TRUTH**!"
Acts 20:32: Paul says, "Now I commit you to God and to the **WORD OF HIS GRACE**, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified!"
Romans 10:17: Consequently, **FAITH COMES FROM HEARING THE MESSAGE**, and the message is heard **THROUGH THE WORD OF CHRIST**!
James 1:18; He chose to give us **BIRTH THROUGH THE WORD** of Truth!!
I Corinthians 15:2: By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the **WORD** preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain!
2 Corinthians 4:2: We do not use deception, nor do we distort the **WORD OF GOD**!
Ephesians 1:13: You also were included in Christ **WHEN** you heard the **WORD** of Truth, the gospel of your salvation.
Ephesians 2:17: Take the sword of the Spirit, which is the **WORD OF GOD**!
Colossians 1:25: I have become its servant by the commission God gave to me to present to you the **WORD OF GOD IN ALL ITS FULLNESS**!
Colossians 3:16: Let the **WORD OF CHRIST** dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom!
I Thessalonians 2:13: We thank God continually because, when you received the **WORD OF GOD**, which you heard from us, you received it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the **WORD OF GOD**!
Acts 17:11,12: Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and **EXAMINED THE SCRIPTURES EVERY DAY**... As a result many of them believed!!
Psalm 118:147,148: I rise before dawn and cry for help; I have put my hope in **YOUR WORD**! My eyes stay open through the watches of the night, that I might meditate on **YOUR PROMISES**!!
2 Timothy 2:15: Do your best to present yourselves to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who **CORRECTLY HANDLES THE WORD ** of truth!
2 Timothy 3:15,16: 4:1,2: You have known the **HOLY SCRIPTURES**, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. **ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD-BREATHED** and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing and His kingdom, I give you this charge: **PREACH THE WORD**!! {**WHICH IS THE ENTIRE NEW COVENANT AND NEW TESTAMENT**!!}
**DOES GOD"S WORD SAY THAT **ADDING** OR **TAKING WORD'S AWAY** FROM GOD's WORD IS AN UMPARDONABLE SIN**??
Revelation 22:16,18,19: "I, Jesus. have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the Churches.... I warn everyone who hears the **WORDS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK**: If anyone **ADDS** {Like Littlest David} anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this Book {Including **ETERNAL HELL**} And if anyone **TAKES WORDS AWAY** {Like chuckk} from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the Tree of Life and in the Holy City {The New Jerusalem}, which are described in this book."
John 16: Jesus says, "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all the Truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify Me because it is from Me that he will receive what he will make known to you!"
And holy spirit inspired the 8 writers of the 27 books of the New Testament to write everything Jesus told him to write!!
THE GREAT COMMISSION: Matthew 28:18-20: Jesus says, “All authority in heaven and on ***EARTH*** has been given to Me {Not some RC Pope}. Therefore go and make disciples of *ALL NATIONS*...teaching them to **OBEY EVERYTHING** {The entire NT} I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very *END OF THE AGE*!”
2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
God's Word is equal to Him because it is His promise to mankind. It is Truth and He is Truth. When we start trying to make it less than what it is, then we rob ourselves.
Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Numerous times Jesus spoke on the authority of the Written Word. It was even directed at Satan because it was known that it is God's Word, and he had no grounds to challenge it.
Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Matt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Matt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
2 Tim 3:16 was written before the New Testament existed, therefore this is applicable only to the TNKH (Old Testament).
John 1:1 The "Word" is Jesus. (especially in context of John 1:1)
Psa 119:11 Ambiguous; A specific personal word from God or the Torah are your only choices here.
"Numerous times Jesus spoke on the authority of the Written Word."
The Written Word Jesus was referring to was "Torah", not the letters of Paul.
Matt 4:4 Proceeds from the mouth of God, Not proceeds from writings. As Jesus heard the Fathers words, so are we taught to do the same rather than relying solely on paper and ink.
Matt 4:7 Here Jesus quotes an authoritative source: The Torah. No problem here.
Matt 4:10 Again; Jesus quotes an authoritative source: The Torah. No problem here.
Therefore authors may testify for another book as long as they weren't the author of that book------------------- Where legitimate testimony exists, what is being testified to?
End quote
When Paul wrote to Timothy, he quoted a passage from Luke and called is scripture:
1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
Paul knew of Luke’s written gospel at this time, and considered it Scripture. If true, then Paul quotes Luke’s gospel on the same level as the writings of Moses
Luk 10:7 KJV - 7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
This last verse is not found in the OT to my knowledge and is quoted by Y'shua.
Let's look at your statements and measure them against scripture.
You say that 2 Tim 3:16 was written before the NT existed.
Well the NT wasn't written all at once. The books were written at varying times. Much of it reflects what was written in OT manuscripts and passed down through oral tradition. The NT is a compilation of books, so it's not really about when it was compiled. It's just bringing together what was already there.
Yes, the Word is Jesus. Why do you suppose that is important?
Ambiguous? Jesus spoke from the book of Psalm. In fact, when He was on the cross, His final words were from Psalm.
Psa 22:1-2 [[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
Matt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
In fact, numerous other times Jesus quoted from the book of Psalm. Here's another.
Psa 8:2-5 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Matt 21:16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?
Not only that, He is bringing up a Psalm that addresses who He is. And there are other psalms as well that He quoted from.
You're putting your understanding in a box of your limit yourself to the Torah. Jesus certainly used numerous scriptures throughout the OT, and much of it is not found in the Torah.
Additionally, Paul was chosen by Christ, so we should listen to what Paul has to say.
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
As well as:
Acts 22:14-15 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Chuckles: Wehave severe disagreements on this forum but we all agree that the 14 books by Paul in the New Testament are all inspired by God and have **ZERO ERRORS** and all of Paul's commandments are also commandments of God. and all apply to the present day.
Acts 9:15: The Lord said to Ananias, "This man{Paul} is My **CHOSEN INSTRUMENT**to proclaim My name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.
Acts 26:16-18: The Lord said to Paul, " I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of **WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN AND WILL SEE OF ME! I will rescue from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in Me!"
2 Peter 3:15,16: Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our **DEAR BROTHER PAUL ALSO WROTE WITH THE WISDOM THAT GOD GAVE HIM**! He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand {For the Lost}. which IGNORANT AND UNSTABLE PEOPLE DISTORT, as they do other Scriptures to **THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION**!
The point is that 2 Tim 3:16 cannot be used as a proof Text to say; just because something is written in the NT it is automatically the words/commands of God. This is because the NT was not yet complied. Even if all the books existed at the time of 2 Tim 3:16 (they didn't) no one would yet know which books were in and which books were out. Therefore Paul would not know which books he would be referring to as Holy Scripture. This is because Paul is referring to what was already universally regarded as Holy Scripture (Separated Writings) - the TNKH.
"Yes, the Word is Jesus. Why do you suppose that is important?"
Glad you asked!!!
Because mainstream Christianity has repeated the same mistake as Orthodox Judaism. They confused a living vibrant relationship with Hashem with following written rules. Even adding Talmud as authoritative. In the same way Christianity has confused the Living Word (Jesus) with the written rules. Even adding Paul's epistles as authoritative.
"Ambiguous?"
Yes, we don't know 'which' specific definition of "word" the song writer (Psalmist) had in mind. It could mean Torah, or a special private word from God.
"Psa 22:1-2"
Just because Jesus quoted this passage or any other doesn't automatically make the entire modern English Bible equal to this passage. However, Messiah quoting these Psalms do give special weight them.
"You're putting your understanding in a box of your limit yourself to the Torah. Jesus certainly used numerous scriptures throughout the OT, and much of it is not found in the Torah."
I'm not limiting myself to Torah. Jewish understanding of the TNKH is gradated levels of authority. 1)Torah 2)Prophets 3)Writings. As Messiah, it is Jesus who gives special authority to the passages he quotes raising them to the level of Torah. Only Messiah has the authority to do this. Paul does not have this authority. However if you think he does, where is this explicitly taught?
Torah is emphatic that it not be added to. Only one greater than Moses can do so, namely Messiah Jesus.
"Additionally, Paul was chosen by Christ, so we should listen to what Paul has to say....
...Acts 9:15 ....Acts 22:14-15"
No one is saying not to listen to Paul. What IS being said is; who gave Paul equal authority with Moses and Jesus to write new Commandments?
Aside from trying to keep early Gentile Churches from imploding. The reality is Paul was writing Drash and Midrash (PaRDes) on the TNKH with Jesus in mind.
