I actually wrote this as a reply to a different post regarding the same subject, but thought I'd open a new thread since the other thread was almost ready to go to the "next page." Lol
Before reading this, please understand this is MY view. I'm a "pre-trib" person and I outlined the reasons why. This is mainly for people who perhaps haven't thought about it, or are just looking for more insight from different viewpoints. In no way does this mean I'm right or wrong - this is just what I've found and I think the answer is pretty plain. As long as we "keep the faith" then it doesn't matter if we're pre, mid, or post supporters on this subject, we'll all get there one way or the other! :glow:
First of all, the wrath:
Luke 21:23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev.14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb
Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God
Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever
Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth
Scripture says the church does not endure this:
I Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come
I Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him
Now we look at Thessalonians:
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming
There will be "many antichrists," but THE antichrist won't be revealed until "he be taken out of the way." Who is "he?" The church. The church that is filled with the power of the Holy Spirit is what is keeping THE antichrist away right now. It must be taken out before he is revealed. Notice the following verses:
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it
Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you
I John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world
Also, from the history of the Bible, we can see that God has taken his children out of harms way before his wrath is poured out:
II Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished
And when Jesus spoke about the last days, he mentioned these people:
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed
And look at these two verses:
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
I will address your post in more detail but will address the Thessalonian passage and "The Day of the Lord.
By the way...the "Pre-Tribulation Rapture" "theory" was formulated by John Nelson Darby based upon his invention of Traditional Dispensational theology in 1835 AD. Prior to the very late 1700s AD no one ever taught or believed in a Pre-Trib. Rapture. The Church universally held to only a Post-Trib. rapture all the way back to the Earliest of the Church Fathers. That is the Historical truth that has never been refuted. Even the Pre-Trib Theologians know this to be true though some have tried to blantly lie about it and were caught in doing so. More on that later. Even former Dallas Theological Seminary President, now deceased, admitted that the "Pre-Trib" Rapture theory was not based upon scriptures ( did you catch that) but on the possibility of there being two distinct bodies of Christians. One Jewish and one Gentile.
The Day Of The Lord
The Day of the Lord is a prophetic event that has never occurred as yet in history. Every where in scripture where it is mentioned it is always in a future tense. Additionally there is only one event called "The Day of the Lord". However there are other phrases given that represent the same event such as Day of Christ, Day of Jesus Christ, Day of God. This event is usually associated with Armageddon, judgement and wrath but the main event that it is associated or linked to is the "Sun and Moon" signs that occur after the Tribulation as we will see below.[see: Isa. 13:6-13, Joel 3:9-17, Zech. 14]. This is exactly what Revelation 19 records as the "battle of Armageddon."
Many of those in the Pre-Trib. camp promote the idea that the Day of the Lord includes the Tribulation period. This allows them to reconcile 1 Thessalonians 5 with pre-tribulationism, since Paul instructed believers to be watching for the "Day of the Lord," [1 Thess. 5:1-6]. If the "Day of the Lord" does comes after the tribulation, as every Old Testament occurrence indicates, then Christians must still be here at the end of the tribulation in order to be watching for that day.
Much has been written by pre-tribulationists trying to stretch the Day of the Lord forward to include the entire tribulation and pre-trib rapture. Comparisons of similar themes, such as wrath, judgment, etc. have been offered as evidence. Yet, absolutely no one has been able to provide any biblical support making them synonymous. None of the Old Testament passages support this conclusion. It comes only from a preconceived assumption of a pre-trib rapture superimposed on the Thessalonian passage. Their theory is a product of reverse engineering of the Scriptures in order to get the desired outcome rather than applying sound rules of interpretation.
The fact is, there are definite biblical passages that totally and clearly forbid the "Day of the Lord" from overlapping the tribulation. The two are mutually exclusive.
In the book of Acts, the apostle Peter quotes the Prophet Joel with regards to end time events that were starting to occur on Pentecost that day.
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
The events of that day were a fulfillment of this prophesy. but Peter continued to quote the rest of the prophesy which had not yet been fulfilled but would at some later time within the "Last Days".
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
The most important point to pay attention to is the "timing" of WHEN "The Day of the Lord" will occur. It is exceptionally clear that there will be very specific signs with the Sun and Moon that will occur FIRST and then the Day of the Lord will come about. But the question is WHEN does the sun and moon signs occur? Jesus answers this question for us.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
In Mat 24:29 above, Jesus just laid out the timeline as to when the Day of the Lord will occur. By Jesus stating with absolute clarity that the "Sun and Moon" signs occur AFTER the Tribulation, He placed the beginning of the Day of the Lord AFTER the Tribulation. This is a very critical point!
By Jesus stating that the Sun and moon signs occur AFTER the Tribulation and Peter and Joel state that the Day of the Lord begins AFTER the Sun and Moon signs, precludes any possibility of the Day of the Lord from occurring at any time prior to the end of the Tribulation. In other words, NONE of the Tribulation can be included within the Day of the Lord.
Why this is an important point is that there are some within the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Camp that claim that the Day of the Lord includes the entire Tribulation period and that it occurs in "phases". The problem with their theory is that they have no scriptural support and the scriptures clearly refute that notion. If the Day of the Lord were to occur in phases then the scriptures would say so but they do not.
Dealing with the Thessalonian passage.
The reason why some in the Pre-Trib. camp make this claim is due to what the apostle Paul says regarding the Day of the Lord and the Rapture in 1 Thess.5:1-2. Let's look at 1 Thess. 4:13-18 first to give us the context of the discussion.
1Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
In other words we cannot be raptured before the dead in Christ are Resurrected.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Again, the Resurrection must occur FIRST, prior to the Rapture.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
As a side note please notice that verse 17 says we will always be with the Lord, but it does not say WHERE that will be. The verse does NOT say Jesus goes to Heaven as some Pre-Tribbers claim. It merely states that we will simply be with Him.
As we can see above, Paul is talking about the "Resurrection and Rapture" of Christians. He does not say when this occurs but is merely describing the events and their sequence, except that he does say it occurs AFTER Jesus leaves Heaven. Then Paul CONTINUES the same topic in the following verses. I say he continues because Paul uses the conjunctive word "BUT".
1Thess 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
In 1 Thess.5:1 Paul says that it is not necessary to explain to them as to the "Times and seasons". The times and seasons he is referring to is what he just finished talking about in chapter 4. The Resurrection and Rapture.He then goes on in verse 2 and reminds them that this event is something they were already familiar with and called the events of chapter 4, "The Day of the Lord".
Isa 2:17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
This is an exclusive statement. Since the Anti-christ and the False Idol are worshipped during the Great Tribulation, that would prohibit the Day of The Lord from being included in any time period prior to the end of the Tribulation since "the Lord ALONE will be exhalted in that day"!
So let's put all this together in sequence.
First, Jesus says in Matt 24:29 that AFTER the Tribulation ends then the Sun and moon signs occur.
Second: Joel and Peter state that the sun and moon signs occur BEFORE the Day of the Lord occurs.
Third: Paul calls The Resurrection and Rapture The Day of the Lord and that clearly occurs AFTER the Tribulation. Therefore the Resurrection and Rapture must occur AFTER the Great Tribulation.
One of the arguments Pre-Tribbers make is concerning the statement about us not beng subject to God's wrath. While that is true the mistake they make is assuming that we have to be removed from the Earth to avoid this and they also fail to consider the CONTEXT of the Thess passage and that Paul clearly states that the Resurrection and Rapture are also known as "The Day of The Lord which is Post-Trib.
Did God remove the nation of Israel when He poured out His wrath upon Egypt during Moses time? Not at all. Is God not able to protect His people THROUGH the trials and tribulations of life.
Additionally another mistake is made is that God does not promise His Church to be spared trials and even Great Tribulation nor does He promise us to be spared persecution. It takes an elitest mentality to think that we modern American Christians are somehow more worthy to escape persecution that the Early Church was not spared. Christians were fed alive to lions, beheaded, burned at the stake, crucified, etc. Are we better than them?
If the rules of the Historical, Grammatical and Literal Hermeneutic is followed consistently then the Scriptures prohibit any other interpretation without doing violence to God's Holy Word.
Here are some things you said I would like to address.
LYNN: 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming
There will be "many antichrists," but THE antichrist won't be revealed until "he be taken out of the way." Who is "he?" The church. The church that is filled with the power of the Holy Spirit is what is keeping THE antichrist away right now. It must be taken out before he is revealed. Notice the following verses:
WALTER: The actual "official" position of the Pre-Trib Rapture theologians is that the "Holy Spirit" is the restrainer, not the church.
The reality is that there are absolutely no scriptures that clearly identify who or what the "Restrainer" is. They are simply making an assumption without any biblical support. Here is an article written by my Pastor before he was a Pastor. This is long but it really addresses this issue. As you know I am leaving on a trip otherwise I would write this all out myself.
The Restrainer
Who or What Restrains the "Mystery of Iniquity?"
By Tim Warner - Revised Feb. 2002
II Thess 2:1-9
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
(NKJV)
The Pre-Trib View
Paul indicates in this passage that someone is withholding the "mystery of iniquity." Once this person moves "out of the way," the Antichrist will be revealed. Pre-tribulationists claim the Holy Spirit is the restrainer. His influence, exercised through the "Church," keeps the revelation of Antichrist and his demonic kingdom in check. They believe the Holy Spirit, along with the Church will be removed before the Antichrist can be revealed.
Pre-tribbers assume several things not stated by Paul. The passage does not say who the restrainer is. Pre-tribbers assume it is the Holy Spirit. It does not say where the restrainer goes when he is "taken out of the way." Pre- tribbers assume He goes to heaven. It is assumed that the "Church" will also go to heaven because she is indwelled by the Spirit.
The pre-trib reasoning depends upon a positive identification of the restrainer as the Holy Spirit. What is the basis for concluding that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit? According to Scofield, the process of elimination requires this view. He says the Holy Spirit is the only one who could do the job. Since the restraining influence has been at work from the time of the Apostles to the present, the restrainer must be eternal and supernatural. It is said that the Holy Spirit is the only one who could fit this criteria.
If the Holy Spirit leaves earth at the beginning of the tribulation, how could the multitudes be saved in the tribulation? No one can be saved apart from the drawing and convicting influence of the Spirit of God. Also, how could 144,000 Jews evangelize the world in seven years, without the power and presence of the Spirit, when the "Church" has been unsuccessful in nearly two thousand years with the Holy Spirit? The Word of God clearly teaches in Mark 13:9-11, that Christians in the tribulation will be empowered by the Holy Spirit! And that the Spirit will be indwelling them.
If we clear away all the assumptions and speculation, these verses say only that someone is withholding the revelation of the Antichrist. When the restrainer moves "out of the way" (of the "mystery of iniquity"), the Antichrist will be revealed. The restrainer is not identified in this passage, nor is there any indication that the restrainer will go to heaven at this time. Scofield is not correct in claiming that only the Holy Spirit can fit the criteria established in this passage.
Other Views
The earliest known interpretation of Paul's "restrainer" seems to have been the Roman Empire. This was the view of Tertullian, a late second century Latin writer. Some have also claimed that Irenaeus (mid 2nd cent.) and Hippolytus (late 2nd cent.) also taught this. But, a close examination of their writings indicates that while they thought Rome must fall first, they derived this idea from Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the great image, not from Paul's discussion of the restrainer. They understood the legs of iron as being the Roman Empire. Since the ten toes represented the 10 kings that give their authority to the Beast, they concluded that the Roman Empire would dissolve into ten kingdoms, after which the Antichrist would arise. This is not the same as Rome being what restrains the appearance of Antichrist. After Constantine made Christianity a state sponsored religion in the fourth century, writers commonly held that Rome was the restrainer.
Others have understood this to refer to human government in general. Since "the powers that be are ordained of God," human laws are seen as keeping this wicked force in check.
Why not the Holy Spirit, Rome, or Human Government?
Before we answer this question, lets look at all of the requirements of the passage in question. Then we will compare the candidates mentioned above to see if they fit the criteria established in this passage.
Criterion #1. The restrainer is spoken of in the neuter gender in verse 6, "what is restraining." In verse 7, the restrainer is referred to using the singular masculine personal pronoun, "He who now restrains." The first criterion is that the restrainer is properly spoken of both in the neuter gender and the masculine (singular) gender. The restrainer is both an "it" and a "he."
Criterion #2. According to verse 7 the "mystery of iniquity" was already working in the first century. Since Paul spoke of the restraining in the present tense, and projected this into the future until the Antichrist is revealed, we can deduce that the restrainer has been active for at least 2000 years. Therefore, the restrainer must be a being that has lived for at least this period of time.
Criterion #3. The restrainer is hindering what Paul calls the "mystery of iniquity" and not the "Man of Sin" himself. Obviously, the "Man of Sin" (Antichrist) was not alive in the first century. The gist of Paul's statement indicates that the "mystery of iniquity" is some kind of demonic force, a "spiritual" power that seeks to bring about the revelation of the Man of Sin. John adds some light for us in the following passage.
I John 4:1-3
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
(NKJV)
Notice the similarity to Paul's statement. John says they knew that the "spirit of Antichrist" was coming. He informs them that this "spirit" was already working at the time. Our third criterion is the restrainer seems to be able to deal directly with spiritual powers on a spiritual plane, rather than in the physical realm. Therefore it is most likely that the restrainer is a spiritual being since he is restraining a spiritual being.
Criterion #4. The restrainer must be more powerful than the one he is restraining, or have greater authority. Otherwise, how could he be successful in restraining for at least 2000 years?
Criterion #5. The Greek word for "restrain" or "withhold" in this passage means to physically grab and hold down. The restrainer deals directly in hand to hand combat with the demonic forces.
Of the previously mentioned candidates for "restrainer," Rome fails the endurance test, since Rome fell many centuries ago. The Man of Sin is still not on the scene. Neither did Rome have the ability to deal directly with demonic powers, and could not deal in close combat with such forces. It also fails the masculine singular pronoun criterion. And whether Rome was more powerful that demonic powers is highly doubtful.
Human government may have continued for the required time, but, like Rome, fails to fit the masculine singular personal pronoun (he). Like Rome, it also fails in the ability to deal on a spiritual plane, and with demonic powers directly. Furthermore, human government will continue in the tribulation, and laws will continue to be enforced. If human government were the restrainer, Paul's words would imply that human government would come to an end before the Man of Sin is revealed. We know that is not true according to Revelation and Daniel. Also, like Rome, human government seems to fail to have sufficient power to keep demonic forces in check, even if it could operate in that realm somehow.
The Holy Spirit fits most of the criteria, certainly being able to deal with demonic forces on a spiritual plane, and having the necessary power. The Holy Spirit is eternal, so He has no difficulty with the long time element. However, the Holy Spirit is not typically spoken of in the neuter gender (WHAT is restraining). Nor is the Holy Spirit typically pictured as directly restraining evil in Scripture, or hands-on wrestling directly with the demonic powers. Yes, the Spirit does play a counter-force role to Satan according to John, ("greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world"). But, this is in reference to the Spirit's influence on US, giving us the ability to overcome the adversary in our personal lives. While the Holy Spirit's presence may indirectly hinder the activity of demonic powers, Paul seems to be painting a picture of more direct hands-on intervention with the powers of darkness.
The Restrainer is Michael and His Armies of Angels
During the reign of Cyrus, King of Persia, an angel appeared to Daniel to reveal the future to him. He informed Daniel that he had been delayed twenty-one days because of a struggle with the "prince of Persia", [Dan. 10:10-13]. Then he said he must return to the struggle with the "prince of Persia," and afterward he must wrestle with the "prince of Greece."
Dan 10:12-14,20-21
12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days. ...
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
(KJV)
Was the angel referring to the human rulers of Persia and Greece? (Persia was the supreme world power at the time of Daniel's vision). But, that seems hardly likely. How could a human ruler or king fight with an angel, or hold back an angel from coming to Daniel? Besides, the same angel in Dan. 11:1 said he stood to confirm and strengthen the first Medo-Persian King (Darius) from the very first year of the Persian Empire. This angel was helping the human Persian king, and at the same time was wrestling against the "prince of Persia." I think it is fair to conclude that the "prince of Persia" was a demonic spirit that sought to turn the kingdom of Persia to do its dark bidding. And this angel had been assigned to restrain it.
Also, notice that the angel said he was returning to the fight with the "prince of Persia" after he left Daniel. After that, the "prince of Grecia" would come. If we follow the succession of Kingdoms in Daniel, we see that the Greeks were to come after the Persians, followed by the Romans. Then the Antichrist would arise out of the ten kingdoms that replaced Rome.
It is apparent that the angel was fighting with a series of demonic powers that sought to influence these successive kingdoms for evil. If there was a "prince of Persia" during the time the Persians ruled the known world, followed by a "prince of Greece" when Alexander the Great came to power and conquered the Persians, it is safe to assume that there would be a "prince of Rome" also. And that the angel would be engaged in the struggle with that demonic force as well. But, notice what this angel said to Daniel about Michael. "But I will show thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your Prince." The expression "Michael your Prince" is in reference to Israel's Prince. Earlier in verse 14, the same angel said to Daniel, "I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people (Israel) in the latter days..." So, "Michael your Prince" is most definitely Israel's Prince. The word "holdeth" means to hold down, or to restrain. Earlier, the angel said that Michael had to come and help him while wrestling with the "prince of Persia" (vs. 13). Michael seems to be superior to this angel at least in strength, and probably in rank. From the angel's words in this passage we can conclude that angels, and Michael in particular, are engaged in restraining demonic powers that seek to influence and control human government for evil purposes. Since at least two successive "princes" are named (Persia and Greece) in the major outline of the succession of kingdoms leading to the Antichrist, we can conclude that this restraining activity was ongoing over these successive kingdoms. Michael is definitely identified as the restrainer here.
The same angel continued his conversation with Daniel through chapter 11, revealing many details about the world kingdoms from Daniel's time until the final kingdom of the Antichrist. He concluded by again referring to Michael in connection with the coming tribulation.
Daniel 12:1
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (KJV)
It is within the context, of angelic restraining of these successive demonic powers that sought to control the series of world empires leading to the Antichrist, that we find that Michael will "stand up" and the time of trouble will begin. It is Michael and his forces who have been "HOLDING" at bay the demonic spirits which attempt to control the world empires. We already saw that Michael was named as Israel's "prince." And here we see the same thing stated. Michael stands for Daniel's people. That is, Michael is Israel's defender. Michael will "stand up" and the time of trouble will begin. What is meant by Michael's standing up? The Hebrew word could mean "stand still" (that is to cease his restraining activity). But, given the fact that the same word is used in reference to his "standing" for Israel, it seems to imply that Michael will take a defensive posture regarding Israel at the time great tribulation begins. Apparently, Michael will cease his offensive role as restrainer of the demonic "princes" and focus on a purely defensive role as Israel's protector in the tribulation.
In Revelation 12 we have more insight regarding Michael's activity at this time.
Rev 12:7-17
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(KJV)
No doubt this passage was meant to bring to mind Daniel 12:1. The timing of Daniel's "standing up" is at the beginning of the "time of trouble." Jesus referred to this verse in Matt. 24:21, calling it "great tribulation" following the "abomination of desolation" (vs. 15). And here in Rev. 12 we see that the period of Israel's protection in the wilderness is 1260 days. Both passages then are parallel. Michael's "standing up" occurs at the same time as the "war in heaven," the mid-point of the 70th week.
When we examine Paul's words in 2 Thess. 2, we see that he too referred to precisely the same time, describing the "abomination of desolation" as the Man of Sin taking his seat in the Temple claiming to be God. This is how he will be "revealed" once the restrainer moves "out of the way" of the "mystery of iniquity."
The word "withhold" or "restrain" (letteth - KJV) in 2 Thes. 2:6-8 are translated from the Greek word "katecho," literally; "to grasp and hold down." The restrainer is "holding down" the "mystery of iniquity." At the time Michael and His angels throw Satan and his demons down to the earth, and Michael takes a defensive stand for Israel's remnant "in the wilderness," the restraint will be removed from the "mystery of iniquity," allowing the Beast to emerge unrestrained on the scene. The time of trouble begins with his unrestrained "abomination of desolation." Jesus twice quoted from this vision of Daniel in His Olivet Discourse, connecting the Antichrist to the final king in Daniel's vision, [cf. Dan. 11:31 & Matt. 24:15], and identifying the "time of trouble" with the "great tribulation," [cf. Dan. 12:1 & Matt. 24:21]. Since Paul's remarks about the Man of Sin sitting in the Temple parallel Jesus mention of the "abomination of desolation" spoken of by Daniel the prophet, it is very likely that Paul had Michael in mind when he spoke of the "restrainer."
Michael and his army of angels fit all of the criteria. Regarding the grammatical concerns, the angelic army is neuter, and Michael their commander is singular masculine. Michael and his angels have been around for over 2000 years, so they fit the time frame requirement. Michael and his angels are the perfect candidate to deal directly with spiritual entities, since they are spiritual beings. Michael is clearly seen in Scripture as the counter force to Satan, the one who contends directly with the Devil [Jude 1:9]. And Michael and his army of angels are more powerful than Satan and his demons, as illustrated by their winning the "war in heaven," and casting Satan and his demons down to the earth.
CRITERIA HOLY SPIRIT ROME HUMAN GOV MICHAEL & HIS ARMY
Masculine/Neuter NO NO NO YES
Active 2000+ Years YES NO YES YES
Spiritual Being YES NO NO YES
Stronger YES NO NO YES
Direct Contact NO NO NO YES
While we may not be able to prove with absolute certainty that the restrainer is Michael and his angels, they are the best fit by far. We also have other passages, like Daniel 10, that actually say Michael is engaged in this type of activity. No similar passages can be found for the role of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, Michael is by far the best choice. And in my opinion, the only possible choice.
If Michael is the restrainer, the whole pre-trib argument from 2 Thessalonians 2 collapses. Not only does the passage say nothing of the restrainer going to heaven, but there is no reason to suppose that the Holy Spirit or the Church is even in view. Finally, IF Paul was refering to the Holy Spirit, and implying that the Church would be taken to heaven before the Antichrist is revealed, he would be directly contradicting what he had just written in verses 1-3. There he said that "our gathering together unto Him" will not occur until AFTER the apostasy and the revelation of the Man of Sin.
The Pre-Trib viewpoint did not originate with Darby. Scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predate Darby, including Epharaem the Syrian who said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." The Pre Trib belief is by no means a new belief as Post-Trib theory supporters like to falsley claim.
I'm not going to go into everything written, and I'm not going to go much further in depth with this. As I said originally, it really doesn't matter, as the timing of the rapture does not in any way affect our salvation.
The rapture and the second coming are two different events, which is where the confusion comes in for most. The Rapture is an unscheduled event where Jesus comes part way to Earth to meet His Church in the air and take us to be with Him where He now is. The Second Coming is a scheduled public event where Jesus comes all the way to Earth with His Church to establish a Kingdom here. Everyone on Earth will be able to witness His arrival. Matt. 24:29-30 says it will happen immediately after the Great Tribulation and all the nations will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky.
As far as the restrainer, I believe it is the Holy Spirit. Before the church age, people were able to find salvation, which was obviously the working of the Holy Spirit on earth. At Pentacost, a second Holy Spirit didn't come to earth. His removal will be and end to the pentacostal outpouring. However, this doesn't mean he will be completely taken out - he will still be on earth to some degree.
Again, this is plain. God didn't write the Bible to confuse us, but to inform us. Why would you insist that we as followers of Christ,His true church, the body of believers in the Blessed Hope have to endure this wrath? God clearly states otherwise: "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes 5:9). "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10). Why do the tribulation saint wannabees constantly preach that Jesus and his disciples suffered persecution so we shouldn't be any better? I guess I've realized there is nothing I can go through to repay Jesus for what He did for me. There is nothing that I can endure that would somehow make up for my sin. I know that God loves me and there is no reason He would leave me here to face such a time when He has told me He will not do so. Read it again: "I also will KEEP thee FROM the hour of temptation, which shall come upon ALL the world, to try THEM (not you or me) that dwell upon the earth." To try THEM - those that are left AFTER the rapture.
Honestly, Walter. I think if I told you it was a horse, you could dig and dig and dig until you found enough words to turn it into a chicken.
Actually no one has discovered any early writings prior to the late 1700s that were Pre-Trib. Grant Jeffreys tried to say there was and even went so far as to purposely cut and paste partial quotes and then place them together as to make it "appear" as though the Early Church Fathers believed this. My friend Tim Warner who is well versed in the Early Church, exposed Grant Jeffereys fraud. I have personally reviewed the quotes and then looked at the actual quotes and saw a complete fabrication and intentional fraud. Many others followed in Grant Jeffreys lies thinking he was being honest. Unfortunately some have re-quoted him and now that the bullet has left the gun it's too late for them to call it back and save face. Even Dr. Wallvoord, now deceased did the same thing. He was also exposed for his lies. So you need to be careful in what you read. It is absolutely an irrefutable fact that the Pre-Trib Rapture is a fabrication of the very late 1700s AD and John Nelson Darby formulated it and promoted it starting in 1835 AD.
Let's talk about the "wrath or not being appointed unto wrath" quote.
The passage you are referring to I addressed and demonstrated that you are taking it out of context and reading more into it then allowed.
1Thes 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,NKJV
Lynn...do you see anything here that tells us or leads us to believe that this means we are spared the Tribulation? You are making a giant leap and imposing upon the text an idea that is not supported.
Did God take the Jews out of Egypt before pouring out His wrath on the Egyptians? No. What did He do? He protected them through His wrath.
Another mistake that is common is that it is "assumed" that the Tribulation is God's wrath. While He does pour put some of His wrath towards the end, His wrath is "selective" upon those who take the Mark of the Beats and the throne of the Anti-Christ, not the whole world and everyone in it.
Additionally what Pretribbers fail to observe concerning the Tribulation is that is more about Satan's wrath upon the Christians. We are never promised to be spared from Satan's wrath.
Were the Early Christians spared the horrible persecution they received? Did God rapture them? Are we better than them? Are we more deserving then they were? Are we "more" Christian then they were? I don't think so.
What is the context of the verse in question?
Remember that Paul in chapter 4 finished describing the events of the Resurrection and rapture and continued describing them in chapter 5. It is critical to notice how Paul continues his thoughts.
1Thess 5:1.... BUT.... concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
Times and seasons of what? The events he just finished describing in the previous verses.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that... THE DAY OF THE LORD...so comes as a thief in the night.
Paul was reminding them of something they were already familiar with. "The Day of the Lord". Grammatically Paul just stated that the events in chapter 4, the Resurrection and Rapture are also known as "The Day of the Lord". The day of the Lord is a POST-Trib event. That is irrefutable.
So when we examine the context of not being appointed to wrath, the context is dealing with "The Day of the Lord". But also notice something else.
1Thess 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
Paul, by using the first person plural "US"...."let US watch"...he is placing himself in the context of watching for the Day of the Lord.
Lynn, everywhere Jesus taught was always a Post-Tribulation return where He gathers together HIS ELECT. His command to preach the Gospel was to preach everything HE taught His Apostles. The Apostles only taught a Post-Trib return. No where in the Gospels did Jesus every preach, teach or even hint of any other coming than His Post-Trib triumphant return.
When Jesus taught about His coming as a thief, it was in the context of Matt 24, His POST-Trib return.
When Jesus talked about His return being like the days of Noah, it was in the context of His POST-Trib return in Mat 24.
When Jesus taught about it being like the days of Sodom, it was in the context of His POST-Trib return in Matt 24.
In another post I also proved that Paul clearly demonstrated that the Resurrection and Rapture occured at the beginning of the establishment of Christ's Millennial Kingdom. 1 Cor 15:50-54. He quotes an Old Testament prophesy and said that this is WHEN the rapture occurs.
