Thread: Is the archangel Michael and Jesus one and the same?? The description of the heavenly body of Jesus in Revelation 1:13-17 is exactly the same as the description of someone that the archangel Michael helped in Daniel 10:5,6 thus proving that the archangel Michael and Jesus are not the same .
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Is the archangel Michael and Jesus one and the same?? The description of the heavenly body of Jesus in Revelation 1:13-17 is exactly the same as the description of someone that the archangel Michael helped in Daniel 10:5,6 thus proving that the archangel Michael and Jesus are not the same .
Posted : 12 Oct, 2013 11:37 AM
The description of the heavenly body of Jesus in Revelation 1:13-17 is exactly the same as the description of someone that the archangel Michael helped in Daniel 10:5,6 thus proving that the archangel Michael and Jesus are not the same .
Revelation 1:13-17: Among the lampstands was someone "like the Son of Man," dressed in a robe reaching down to His feet and with a golden sash around His chest. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow,, and His eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and His voice like the sound of rushing waters...His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance . John said, "When I saw Him, I fell at His feet as though dead. Then He placed His right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last!"
Compare with Daniel 10:5,6,13, 16,17: Daniel said, "I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in *LINEN*, with the belt of the finest gold around His waist. His body was like chrysolite, his face like lightning, His eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and His voice like the sound of a multitude..... And He said the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted Me. Then *MICHAEL*, one of the cheif princes, came to help Me!"..... Daniel said "I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my LORD, and I am helpless. How can I, your servant, talk with you my LORD? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe."
And so this shows that Michael is definately not Jesus!!
The archangel Michael also appears just before the beinning of the 1260-day Great Tribulation in Revelation 12:7 which was prophesied in Daniel 12:1,2,7.
Revelation 12:7-9,13,14: And there was war in Heaven. *MICHAEL* and his angels fought against the dragon {Satan} and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whold world astray. He was hurled to earth and his angels with him...When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to earthhe pursued the woman. The woman was was given two wings of a great eagle so that she may fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.
By comparing Rev 12:6 with Rev 12:14 we know that time {360 days}, times {720 days} and half a time{180 days} is 1260 days: Rev 12:6 "The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for *1260 days!*
This 1260-day or time, times and half a time Great Tribulation with the archangel Michael coming before is also prophesied in Daniel 12:1,2,7:
Daniel 12:1,2,7: At that time *MICHAEL*, the great prince who protects your people, will arise {See Rev 12:7 above}. There will be a time of distress such as not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the Book {The Lamb's Book of Life}--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.....The Man clothed in *LINEN* {Jesus--see Dan 10:5 above} said... "It will be for a time 360 days}, times {720 days} and half a time {180 days} when the power of the holy people has been finally broken **ALL* these things will be completed!!"
The archangel Michael is also mentioned in Jude 9: "But even the archangel *MICHAEL*, when he was disputing with the devil about the the body of Moses..." the arch angel *MICHAEL* is mentioned exactly 5 times in God's Word : Daniel 10:13,21; Daniel 12:1; Jude 9 and Revelation 12:7. The archangel Michael is called a prince in Daniel.
Is the archangel Michael and Jesus one and the same?? The description of the heavenly body of Jesus in Revelation 1:13-17 is exactly the same as the description of someone that the archangel Michael helped in Daniel 10:5,6 thus proving that the archangel Michael and Jesus are not the same .
Posted : 12 Oct, 2013 11:45 AM
Michael in Hebrew means "Who like God?" or Who is like unto God?" And of course the answer is NO ONE!
According to Jude 1:9 Michael is the archangel and according to Hebrews 1:3-8 below Jesus is NOT an angel and is far above the angels.
Hebrews 1:3-8: After He {Jesus} had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So He became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs....When God brings His Firstborn into the world, He says, "Let all God's angels worship Him!" In speaking of the angels He says, "He makes His angels winds, his servants flames of fire." But about the Son He says, "Your throne O *GOD* will last for ever and ever!"
Genesis 5:22-24: Enoch WALKED WITH GOD 300 years... Enoch WALKED WITH GOD;.... then he was no more because God took him away!
There are some who have speculated that God made Enoch the archangel and renamed him *MICHAEL*. God giving new names to some of His super saints is not without precedent since God renamed Saul "PAUL" and renamed Simon "PETER".
Is the archangel Michael and Jesus one and the same?? The description of the heavenly body of Jesus in Revelation 1:13-17 is exactly the same as the description of someone that the archangel Michael helped in Daniel 10:5,6 thus proving that the archangel Michael and Jesus are not the same .
Posted : 12 Oct, 2013 04:24 PM
Enoch who may be the archangel Michael apparently made this amazing prophecy *AFTER* he was translated to heaven in Jude 14,15 since it was not recorded in God's Word during his lifetime.
Jude 14,15: *ENOCH*, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in an ungodly way!!*
Did you know that the angel Gabriel was also a **MAN** {Possibly David} as it is recorded in Daniel 9:21!!!
Daniel 9:21,22: Daniel said, "While I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the **MAN** I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight. He instructed me and said to me, "Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding!!" And the the *MAN** called Gabriel gave Daniel the amazing prophecy of the 70 7's in Daniel 9:24-27!!
David is called a **MAN** after God's own heart and Jesus is called the Son of David 17 times. And Gabriel means "**MAN** of God" in Hebrew !!!
David is called an angel {Greek Word} "Angelos" in Luke 1:26 but "angelos" can also be translated "messenger" and John the Baptist is called an "angelos" in even though he was a **MAN** in Matthew 11:10; Mark 1:2 and Luke 7:27! "I will send My messenger {ANGELOS} ahead of You!" And so the angel {GREEK-ANGELOS} Gabriel can also be translated the messenger Gabriel and since Gabriel is a *MAN** according to the inspired Word of God in Daniel 9:21 then angel Gabriel should be translated the messenger Gabriel in Luke 1:19,26,30!!!
Luke 1:26-33: God sent the angel {messenger} Gabriel to Nazareth to a virgin pledged to be married, a descendant of *DAVID*. The virgins name was mary...The angel {messenger} said to her "You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father **DAVID**, and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; His Kingdom will never end!!"
Is the archangel Michael and Jesus one and the same?? The description of the heavenly body of Jesus in Revelation 1:13-17 is exactly the same as the description of someone that the archangel Michael helped in Daniel 10:5,6 thus proving that the archangel Michael and Jesus are not the same .
Posted : 14 Oct, 2013 07:17 AM
That's actually a really good point, but I don't think it is Jesus that appeared in Daniel 10. Take a closer look.
Daniel 10
5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
7 And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.
8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.
10 And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.
11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.
12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
:bouncy:In this first section, it's immediately similar to the angel Gabriel coming to help Daniel in Chapter 9. The being doesn't inform Daniel of the presence of God or cause him to worship him, but he does introduce himself in the same way as Daniel 9 and comes to Daniel for the very same reason.
Daniel 9
Gabriel Brings an Answer
20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my plea before the Lord my God for the holy hill of my God, 21 while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He made me understand, speaking with me and saying, �O Daniel, I have now come out to give you insight and understanding. 23 At the beginning of your pleas for mercy a word went out, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly loved. Therefore consider the word and understand the vision.
Daniel 10 again:
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
:bouncy:You must also consider, you're saying that Jesus, the God of Heaven, needed help from an angel when dealing with a man, that is something that we never see in scripture. Jesus always stands and always overcomes, the only times he needed help from angels was when He was here as a man tempted by Satan, or right before His death, and still it was only AFTER He had already overcome His trials and gained the victory. It makes much more sense that Gabriel would need help, and not Jesus the Almighty.
Daniel 10 again:
14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
15 And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.
16 And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.
17 For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.
18 Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,
19 And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
:bouncy:At the end of the conversation here, the being says that he is returning to fight the prince of Persia, so it's still the same being throughout. I see that Daniel calls this being "lord", but he also called the kings of Babylon "lord"(4:19, 24), and he refers to another angel or messenger as "lord"(12:8). My question is, what evidence is there that this being in Daniel 10 is actually Jesus? I don't see any of the identifying characteristics in this being's behavior, it's much more like a messenger, and I would say that it's actually Gabriel again.
Is the archangel Michael and Jesus one and the same?? The description of the heavenly body of Jesus in Revelation 1:13-17 is exactly the same as the description of someone that the archangel Michael helped in Daniel 10:5,6 thus proving that the archangel Michael and Jesus are not the same .
Posted : 14 Oct, 2013 01:04 PM
The description of the heavenly body of Jesus in Revelation 1:13-17 is exactly the same as the description of someone that the archangel Michael helped in Daniel 10:5,6 thus proving that the archangel Michael and Jesus are not the same .
Revelation 1:13-17: Among the lampstands was someone "like the Son of Man," dressed in a robe reaching down to His feet and with a golden sash around His chest. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow,, and His eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and His voice like the sound of rushing waters...His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance . John said, "When I saw Him, I fell at His feet as though dead. Then He placed His right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last!"
Compare with Daniel 10:5,6,13, 16,17,19: Daniel said, "I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in *LINEN*, with the belt of the finest gold around His waist. His body was like chrysolite, his face like lightning, His eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and His voice like the sound of a multitude..... And He said the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted Me. Then *MICHAEL*, one of the cheif princes, came to help Me!"..... Daniel said "I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my LORD, and I am helpless. How can I, your servant, talk with you my LORD? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe....When He spoke to me, I was strenghtthened and said, "Speak, my *LORD*, since You have given me strength!!"
The description of the heavenly body of Jesus in Revelation 1:13-17 is exactly the same as the description of someone that the archangel Michael helped in Daniel 10:5,6 thus proving that the archangel Michael and Jesus are not the same .
You will note that Daniel called Jesus *LORD* 3 times in Daniel 10:16,17 and 19 and worshipped Him. If this was an angel and not Jesus then the angel would have told Daniel the same thing that an angel told John in Revelation 22:8,9: John said, "I fell down to worship at the feet of the ANGEL who had been showing them to me. But the angel said to me, "Do not do it! I am fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"
Is the archangel Michael and Jesus one and the same?? The description of the heavenly body of Jesus in Revelation 1:13-17 is exactly the same as the description of someone that the archangel Michael helped in Daniel 10:5,6 thus proving that the archangel Michael and Jesus are not the same .
Posted : 15 Oct, 2013 06:12 AM
It does not say that Daniel fell down in worship, it says he did not have the strength to stand after seeing the vision of the Lord in 10:5-9, the angel had to strengthen him and helped him up. There was no dialog about worship or holy ground, etc. Also, the first vision is probably Jesus, but there is no indication that the being described(10:5-9) is the one who touched him(10:10-11) and caused him to understand. It is Gabriel that had been coming to explain the visions to Daniel every time. It says Daniel fell asleep, and then a hand touched him to wake him and explain the vision. The being in the vision was clearly not a man and not denoted as "one that looked like a man", but then one "who looked like a man" came and woke up Daniel. Three times it describes the being who touches Daniel as "one who looked like a man", that is definitely not the same description as the being in 10:5-9, it definitely fits far better with your descriptions of "the man Gabriel".
Is the archangel Michael and Jesus one and the same?? The description of the heavenly body of Jesus in Revelation 1:13-17 is exactly the same as the description of someone that the archangel Michael helped in Daniel 10:5,6 thus proving that the archangel Michael and Jesus are not the same .
Posted : 15 Oct, 2013 06:44 AM
Well you said that the description of the one in Revelation 1:13-17 is PROBABLY Jesus . However it is definately Jesus since he died and camback to life and is the First and the Last and gave John Revelation chapters 2 and 3 and calls Himself Jesus many times. And the description of the one in in Daniel 10:5,6 is also definately Jesus since he is descrbed exactly the same as Jesus is described in Revelation 1:13-17.
You will also note that Daniel called Him Lord 3 times and worshipped him who also gave him strength.
Daniel 10:5,6,13, 16,17,19: Daniel said, "I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in *LINEN*, with the belt of the finest gold around His waist. His body was like chrysolite, his face like lightning, His eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and His voice like the sound of a multitude..... And He said the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted Me. Then *MICHAEL*, one of the cheif princes, came to help Me!"..... Daniel said "I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my LORD, and I am helpless. How can I, your servant, talk with you my LORD? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe....When He spoke to me {Daniel}, I was strengthened and I said, "Speak, my *LORD*, since You have given me strength!!"
Is the archangel Michael and Jesus one and the same?? The description of the heavenly body of Jesus in Revelation 1:13-17 is exactly the same as the description of someone that the archangel Michael helped in Daniel 10:5,6 thus proving that the archangel Michael and Jesus are not the same .
Posted : 16 Oct, 2013 11:55 AM
That's not how the verses progress, I don't think you're justified in cutting it up to say what you want. Gabriel did the exact same thing in chapter 8 after Daniel had seen a vision of the beasts. Daniel has a vision of the beasts, he is exhausted and falls down, and Gabriel is sent to strengthen him and make him understand the vision that he just saw.
Daniel 8
16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
A similar thing occurs in Daniel 9. Are we seeing a pattern here? I sure am!
Daniel 9
20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God;
21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
It's almost exactly the same in verse 10. Daniel has a vision of the Lord in His glory, Daniel is exhausted and falls down, and Gabriel is sent to strengthen him and make him understand the vision that he just saw.
Daniel 10
8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.
10 And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.
11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.
12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
So, I say that it's definitely Gabriel all three times, and I don't need to cut it up.:ribbit:
Is the archangel Michael and Jesus one and the same?? The description of the heavenly body of Jesus in Revelation 1:13-17 is exactly the same as the description of someone that the archangel Michael helped in Daniel 10:5,6 thus proving that the archangel Michael and Jesus are not the same .
Posted : 16 Oct, 2013 12:21 PM
Daniel 8:15,16 and Daniel 9:21 tells us that Gabriel is definately a *MAN** but Daniel 10:5-19 descibes one who is definately the LORD Jesus and not Gabriel who is just a *MAN*.
The description of the heavenly body of Jesus in Revelation 1:13-17 is exactly the same as the description of someone that the archangel Michael helped in Daniel 10:5,6 thus proving that the archangel Michael and Jesus are not the same .
Revelation 1:13-17: Among the lampstands was someone "like the Son of Man," dressed in a robe reaching down to His feet and with a golden sash around His chest. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow,, and His eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and His voice like the sound of rushing waters...His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance . John said, "When I saw Him, I fell at His feet as though dead. Then He placed His right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last!"
Compare with Daniel 10:5,6,13, 16,17,19: Daniel said, "I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in *LINEN*, with the belt of the finest gold around His waist. His body was like chrysolite, his face like lightning, His eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and His voice like the sound of a multitude..... And He said the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted Me. Then *MICHAEL*, one of the cheif princes, came to help Me!"..... Daniel said "I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my *LORD*, and I am helpless. How can I, your servant, talk with you my *LORD*? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe....When He spoke to me, I was strenghtthened and said, "Speak, my *LORD*, since You have given me strength!!"
Is the archangel Michael and Jesus one and the same?? The description of the heavenly body of Jesus in Revelation 1:13-17 is exactly the same as the description of someone that the archangel Michael helped in Daniel 10:5,6 thus proving that the archangel Michael and Jesus are not the same .
Posted : 17 Oct, 2013 05:35 AM
I think you're missing the vision part though. Daniel had a vision of Jesus, just like John did in revelation. Then, AFTER the vision, Gabriel comes to strengthen Daniel and explain the vision to Daniel, just like the other times. I do think that the first part of Daniel 10 is describing Jesus, it is very clearly Jesus. After that though, Daniel describes the being who touched him as looking like one of the sons of men, NOT the lightning-faced God of Heaven.
Daniel had a vision and lost his strength:
7 And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. 8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength
Daniel heard the voice of God in the vision and then fell asleep:
9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.
Then someone wakes him up and says the same things that Gabriel says, and is described as having the similitude of the sons of men, just like Gabriel is described. It's NOT the lightning faced God of Heaven with flaming torches for arms from the vision:
12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.15 And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.16 And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.
Daniel is NOT having the vision at this point. Gabriel was sent to wake him up, give him strength, and help him understand it.
Also, if you're going to to maintain that this is Jesus throughout the entire verse, you're saying the there are angels more powerful than Jesus, and that Jesus needs their help to deal with a human. That makes God less powerful than a Prince of Persia.
