Thread: Too Few Categories of Thought In Man Made Theology
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Too Few Categories of Thought In Man Made Theology
Posted : 30 Sep, 2013 05:26 AM
Too Few Categories of Thought In Man Made Theology
In man made theology - dispensationalism, Messianic Judaism, Hebrew Roots and Sacred Name Theology - either the Catholic Church replaced physical and national Israel, or there now exist two peoples of God, physical and national Israel, and the church. But the ekklesia, translated as church except in the Tyndale Bible, is in the NT nearly always just a congregation, or assembly of those of faith and some who have not yet come to a knowledge of the truth and are of the elect. The ekklesia is not the Body of Christ, or the elect, and so it is not Israel reborn in Christ.
Francis Schaeffer used to talk about the problem of Christians not having enough categories of thought. This problem is obvious in the two categories of thought now taught in man made theology, that either the church replaced physical and national Israel or God now has two peoples contrary to John 10: 16, which are physical Israel and the church. So, if you teach that dispensationalism is wrong in saying God has two peoples, and that scripture itself shows a third category, you are in the eyes of man made theology advocating replacement theology. Scripture points to a doctrine totally rejected by man made theology, that physical Israel was transformed as Jeremiah 18: 1-6 says in a parable. But this transformation is seen in other scriptures as well, often by implication. Galatians 6: 16, where Paul puts an article before Israel, making it THE Israel of God, to distinguish it from "they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God" in Romans 9: 8.
But man made theology ignores Romans 9: 6-8, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel...(verse 6) "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
So, there cannot be a transformation of physical national Israel into the spiritual house of I Peter 2: 5 and the chosen generation of I Peter 2: 9. Almost no one in the churches knows and understands the prophecy in II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16 and Jeremiah 18: 1-6. The churches apparently do not teach this. Its a "non-essential," kept off in a compartment where the preachers don't go.
Man made theology tends to keep scripture itself in separate compartments, because it is often easier to get by with teaching doctrines that contradict those separate little compartmentalized bits of scripture. Isaiah 28: 13, however, does not agree with this compartmentalization. It says "...precept must be upon precept, line upon line: here a little and there a little..." Some will claim this is not about gathering strands of doctrine and truth from many parts of scripture, which is part of the dialectic argument trying to diminish the power of scripture.
And - one of the ways of diminishing the power of scripture is to compartmentalize it and discourage putting parts of it together.
False doctrines over the years since the 19th century has been added to false doctrines and dispensationalism is not the only false doctrine. Other false doctrines have been added to it, which re-define key doctrines of Christianity. This is all why the present day church is in Babylon, that is, it is Babylon. And "And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee" is powerful. Then that same chapter, Revelation 18, in verse 4 says to God's people still in Babylon "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."
Too Few Categories of Thought In Man Made Theology
Posted : 30 Sep, 2013 08:41 AM
This made me, uhm, stating that the Church is Babylon is RIDICULOUS!!! What you are saying it that the Church has become an enemy of God. That the Church will be lost. Please pray God for insight in these things. What you are now stating is the opposite of what the Bible says.
By the way: Revelation 4 till the end of Revelation is about the period after the Rapture of the Church. I do not completely agree with dispensationalism about time periods (because that's arbitrary), but dispensationlism with respect to the "future" is the most correct thinking at this moment. You really should read a book from dispensationalists. In the Netherlands we have since 2011 a great book on dispensationlism, it was translated from German. I wish it would be available in English for you, but unfortunately it isn't (yet)
Too Few Categories of Thought In Man Made Theology
Posted : 30 Sep, 2013 09:42 AM
I'm pretty sure he just means "a church", not "the church". There is biblical grounds for this, in many places the bible talks about how some think they are serving God, but Jesus will tell them that he didn't know them. They will be casting out demons and doing miracles and probably going to church, etc. The parable of the 10 virgins is also an example. Only 5 virgins were accepted into the wedding feast, but they were all virgins, they all had lamps, and they all had at least some oil. In prophecy, a "woman" very often represents a church, there is the pure woman(the true church) who was pregnant, and the *lady of the evening* of Babylon(the false church), the mother of harlots. In the last days, God is calling the people who are true to Him, to come out of Babylon and confusion, and come into the true body of Christ where they belong.
Too Few Categories of Thought In Man Made Theology
Posted : 30 Sep, 2013 11:44 AM
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." II Thessalonians 2: 3-4
There are other scriptures that support II Thessalonians, mostly in I and II Timothy.
One of these supporting texts is II Timothy 4: 3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
Dispensationalism teaches one of these fables in claiming that II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 is about their one man anti-Christ political type figure sitting in a newly rebuilt temple in Jerusalem.
But - focusing a lot on a criticism of the man made theology called dispensationalism becomes an expression of antithetical energy, that is, too much energy is spent on being against something.
Yet, in teaching that II Thessalonians says, by use of a few other NT texts does expose the false interpretation of dispensationalism. The truth is that under the New Covenant there is no literal building which is the temple of God. The temple of God is now those who re in Christ, and have come to the knowledge of the truth as I Corinthians 3: 16-17 and I Corinthians 6: 19 say.
The truth is that at some point in time Bible prophecy says there will be a falling away from sound doctrine. And II Timothy 4: 3 says the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine.
II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 had one fulfillment at the time after about 312 A.D. when the Catholic Church began and promoted a number of false doctrines and practices. A second fulfillment - another falling away from sound doctrine - began happening in the 19th century when several cults began, and dispensationalism was one of these cults then.
Dispensationalism is one of the big factors in the falling away that has gone on since the 19th century. Its not the only factor in that falling away from sound doctrine.
When the falling away from sound doctrine has gone on for a period of decades and gets worse and worse and more and more people are deceived into believing the false doctrines then the metaphoric concept called Babylon in Jeremiah 50, and 51 and in Revelation 17 and 18 occurs. This Babylon is a metaphor for being in captivity, as physical Israel was literally in captivity in a literal place called Babylon.
It gets confusing to use the word "church" in all this, by saying the church is in Babylon or is Babylon. This is partly because the word "church" has been used for everyone who is saved. The church is also the congregations themselves in various places, and this is consistent with what the Greek word ekklesia means, a meeting, assembly or congregation. And that assembly is made up of some percentage of saved people and some percentage not saved.
The "church" as being everyone who is saved is not in Babylon.
But the "church" as the many congregations in many places which has some who have come to the knowledge of the truth and some who have not done so, and where the vast majority have not done so, is Babylon.
Its it less confusing to use the term "church" consistently to mean just the many congregations in many places, and the term Body of Christ, the elect, or the saints to refer to the saved people, the Israel of God of Galatians 6: 16.
Too Few Categories of Thought In Man Made Theology
Posted : 30 Sep, 2013 02:01 PM
I agree with DontHitThatMark on the parable of the 10 virgins. Not all "christians" are true/real christians.
But I don't know whether I agree or disagree with you both on Revelation 18. I think this is the correct interpretation and yes it is a dispensationalist interpretation. When the Rapture will take place, the real Church, the real believers, will be raptured. After this Rapture has taken place, a false church remains (the 5 virgins who don't have oil in their lamps) This false church could/will be the Babylon of Revelation 18. So you could say that nowaday this Babylon is already existing. But after the Rapture it will literaly manifest itself.
halfback, are you disclaiming the Rapute?! I don't completely understand your point against dispensationalism
But I think that after the Rapture a man will rise, he's called the antichrist in the Bible, and yes he will sit in the temple. The problem is that you see Israel methaphorical. The calvinist theology has always said that the church was/is Israel: Israel is methaphorical. When Israel litteraly was refounded in 1948 they had a problem. The Jews have their plans ready for rebuilding the temple, it is just a matter of time.
Too Few Categories of Thought In Man Made Theology
Posted : 1 Oct, 2013 12:41 AM
Yes, both churches will be on earth till the second coming of Christ, but 7 years before this second coming the Church will be raptured. The key is 2 Thessalonians 1-11. Here it is stated that the antichrist will come AFTER the One that restrains him will be taken away, that One is the Holy Spirit. And because the Holy Spirit and the Church are tied together, this means that the Church also will be taken away. And after the Rapture has took place, the antichrist will manifest himself and that is the period where Revelation 4-18 speaks about. So after the rapture a false church remains (=Babylon). BUT of course there will be many people who will be converted to the (real) christian faith, they will be true christians. Revelation 7 speaks about these people: 144000 Jews and "a great multitude, which no man could number". These two groups are coming from the Tribulation (=period of the antichrist) So yes both churches will exist untill the second coming, but there comes a rapture. 2 Thessalonians 1-11 is very important!
Too Few Categories of Thought In Man Made Theology
Posted : 1 Oct, 2013 12:29 PM
I think you're making some assumptions there, I'd like to see more verses that support your point of view. In one of the parables of Jesus, the lord of a field told his servants to let both the wheat and the weeds grow together until the harvest. The wheat is gathered into the barn and the weeds are burned. That is the way Jesus chose to described the last days, and it is consistent with the rest of the bible. There is no pre-tribulation rapture. Christians will be persecuted and martyred, we will go through the plagues that come on the earth, we will probably even be blamed for them by the false church.
