Thread: Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
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Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 18 Mar, 2009 11:48 AM
Hi Everyone,
This article I wrote will be dealing with the issue of "Eternal Security" also known as "OSAS" Once Saved Always Saved". This theology is an off shoot from Calvinism's 5th point called "Preseverance of the Saints". What some of you do not know is that the belief of OSAS or "Onced Saved Always Saved" did not exist or come into being until the 1500s AD when John Calvin invented it. Prior to that, no record is found anywhere in Church history that anyone ever believed or taught this. The consistent view of Chritianity has always been that a true Christian could forfeit their salvation should they committ the one sin called Apostasy.
Those who believe in OSAS like Southern and Independent Baptists do will claim that if a person who is truly saved will never commit Apostasy or that if they do then they were never really saved to beign with. The problem with that philosophy is that it is not supported by scripture. If a Christian was not able to commit Apostasy, to deny Christ totally, then why did God in His infinite wisdon have numerous scriptures written to warn Christians of the potential of that very thing? It seems absurd for God to warn His saved Christian children if it were not possible they could forfeit their salvation. Let's look at some scriptures that deal with this.
Let's first deal with a passage where Jesus was giving a private teaching to His 12 Disciples.
John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
I want you to first notice that Jesus is talking about branches that are..."IN ME" in other words in Him, these are Christians, true believers, born again. They are "IN CHRIST".
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide[continue] in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
I have interjected the word [continue] next to "abide" as that is what that word means. It also means to "remain in a given relationship".
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides [continues] in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
Now notice the word ..."IF"...in the next verse. The word "IF" denotes a CHOICE, a person's free will to choose. It is also making a conditional statement...."if you continue".
6 IF...anyone does not abide [continue] in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Verse 6 above is very telling. Christ has placed a condition upon a person's salvation. A person has the Free Will to continue "IN HIM" or not to and notice the consequences "IF" a person does NOT continue. They are CAST OUT, withered and they are BURNED. This is a permanent condition. Eternally condemned. You cannot re-graph a branch that has been cast out, withered and burned. There is no more hope for that "branch", that person.
Let's look at what Paul had to say.
1Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved,.... if.... ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
In the above passage Paul is making a very clear statement. He is stating that a person's salvation is "conditional" by using the phrase "IF" ye keep in memory what I preached unto you". The word "IF" is a conditional word and is in every translation written. 100% of all translators used this word for this phrase as well as the passage below. What both passages are clearly stating is that our Salvation is CONDITIONAL upon our CONTINUED FAITH in the Gospel / Christ. It has nothing at all to do with works. It is our FAITH in Christ, but it is still our choice to remain/ continue or not to. FREE WILL.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ....ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Note that Paul is not telling them of their need to obtain saving faith, but of their need to CONTINUE in their saving faith that they have already obtained and the consequence IF they do not continue which is forfeiture of their salvation. There would be no warnings if the threat and consequence of Apostasy were not real.
Paul consistently encouraged his readers but usually did so after he warned them of the dangers of committing Apostasy. Let me show you a pattern of writings he did regarding salvation, the dangers of "Falling Away" from the Christian Faith Encouragement to continue in the faith and how even he himself potentially could have become an Apostate or "Reprobate"/"Castaway"
Phil 3:9 � and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 � Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.
16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind. NKJV
Acts 20:24 "But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. NKJV
1 Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.
25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.NKJV
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (KJV)
There is an important analogy Paul is giving here. He is making it very clear in my opinion, that in order to receive an "imperishable crown" which we know is the crown of Life, we have to finish the race. We have to cross the finish line. Remember not everyone who is running in this race will cross the finish line.
Notice that Paul is saying that he must keep his flesh in subjection so it does not cause him to loose faith and abandon Jesus Christ. The Greek word for "castaway" is usually translated "reprobate" in the KJV. It is found in Romans 1:28, 2 Cor. 13:5,6,7, 2 Tim. 3:8, Titus 1:16, and Heb. 6:8. In the last passage it is translated "rejected." In every single case this word is used of the lost. If Paul was aware of the ever present peril of ultimately being lost through unbelief, we too need to be on guard.
Paul is again talking about running a race. He must love Track like me. LOL Notice he is encouraging his readers, who are CHRISTIANS I might add, to run the race in such a away as to receive the prize. He is not making any guarantees or any implications that they would finish the race but he encouraged them to do so. This encouragement was also more of a warning to them.
Hebrews 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,NKJV
Same theme. Run the race WITH ENDURANCE. Persevere to the end.
Mat 24: 13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. NKJV
Jesus laid the foundation above that Paul continued to preach upon.
2 Tim 4: 6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand.
Paul knew his time to die was coming very soon and he imparted some final words.
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. NKJV
Paul was ready to die and he made it plain that he had finished the race and that he had KEPT THE FAITH. What is the opposite of keeping the Faith? NOT keeping the faith. Falling back unto UNBELIEF. APOSTASY. Forfeiture of one's Salvation.
There is a distinct difference between Arminian Theology and Weslyan.
Weslyan theology, which is what Assembly of God, Methodists and a few others believe, teaches that a Christian can lose their salvation by committing certain sins like adultery and fornication and then if the person repents then they regain their salvation back. That is simply not biblical and makes their salvation somewhat of a works based faith which is not biblical.
Arminian theology teaches that once a Christian has committed Apostasy, then they can never come back. They can never be forgiven again. Once salvation has been forfeited there is no more hope for that person. Coincidentally, this is also what the Earliest Church Fathers of the first two centuries taught. :-)
There are no number of sins or sins per se that will cause a Christian to lose their salvation. There is only one sin and one sin only that causes a Christian to "Forfeit" their salvation and that sin is called "Apostasy"aka "falling away." That is a total and complete rejection of Christ and His teachings. It is falling back to a state of UNbelief.
What is "Apostasy?"
According to Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, "Apostasy" is defined as "the determined willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian Believer [Heb. 10:26-29; John 15:22]. This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance."
The nature of apostasy requires that one be a believer first, then turn away from God.
Paul warned just as Jesus did that in the last days there WILL BE a "Falling Away" from the faith. In 2Thess 2:3 Paul gave this warning of an event that will occur. So what is it?
Neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of G868; properly something separative, that is, (specifically) divorce: - (writing of) divorcement.
Apostasy is akin to a Divorce. A Christian divorcing from Christ. When this occurs, you are no longer His. You are no longer a Christian. You are no longer saved.
So how does this happen to a Christian?
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of UNBELIEF,...... in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (KJV)
Let's examine some key points here.
1) This passage is clearly addressed to the "Brethern". These are Christians. Jewish Christians but Christians nevertheless.
2) The warning is concerning Christians possibly developing an evil heart of "UNBELIEF" and if so, their departing from the living God. You cannot depart from God unless you are with God to begin with. How does this occur?
3)" lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin". Here we see that staying in a sinful lifestyle can harden a Christian's heart. That is what sin does. It hardens a person's heart to a point that they can fall back to a state of UNbelief and depart from God. This is what Apostasy is. A total rejection of Christ BY a Christian believer. Hardening is something that does not occur over night. It takes time but for each individual that time will vary.
4) 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Here is the condition placed upon our salvation. We are made partakers of Christ, ..."IF" we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. What does that mean? It means that as long as we continue to believe in Christ, then we will remain a partaker of Christ.
Paul also related this same situation to the Christians in Rome. Paul was explaining to these Gentile Christians about unbelieving Israel and how some of the natural branches (Jews) were broken off so that Gentile Christians could be grafted into the vine. Then Paul gives a similar warning as Christ did.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. NKJV
Paul was warning these Gentile Christians not to be haughty but to fear. In other words do not be so secure in thinking that it is not possible for you as a Christian to fall back into "unbelief" and be cut off from God just as some Jews were.
Conclusion.
The scriptures above clearly refute the False teachings of OSAS and "Perseverance of the Faith". Calvinisms 5th point cannot stand.
We as Christians have a responsibility to choose to continue in Christ, "endure until the end" or not to. God does not force salvation on anyone nor does He stop a Christian from committing Apostasy.
1Cor 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 18 Mar, 2009 12:42 PM
Yes Walter, another passage is the sower of seeds that I like because it describes conditions of the heart, whether it is truly converted. (word taken away lest they believe and be saved/no root/choked with cares and riches) If truly converted, it shows in manner, speech, lifestyle >last verse " having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience."
Luke 8:5-15 (King James Version)
5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. :devil:
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, :toomuch: and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.:angel:
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 18 Mar, 2009 03:31 PM
Question: "What is Arminianism and is it Biblical?"
Answer: Arminianism is a system of belief that attempts to explain the relationship between God�s sovereignty and mankind�s free will, especially in relation to salvation. Arminianism was founded by Jacob Arminius (1560-1609), a Dutch theologian, and it is essentially the opposite of Calvinism. If Arminianism is broken down into five points, similar to the five points of Calvinism, these would be the five points:
(1) Partial Depravity � humanity is tainted by sin, but not to the extent that we cannot chose to come to God on our own. We are capable of choosing to accept salvation or reject it without any influence from God. (2) Conditional Election � God chose who would be saved based on knowing beforehand who would believe. God chooses those whom He knows will believe. (3) Unlimited Atonement � Jesus died for everyone, even those who are not chosen and will not believe. Jesus� death was for all of humanity, and anyone can be saved by belief in Him. (4) Resistible Grace � God�s call on a person�s life to be saved can be resisted and/or rejected. We can resist God�s pull towards salvation if we choose to. (5) Conditional Salvation � Christians can lose their salvation if they continue in a life of sin and/or fall away from God. The maintenance of salvation is required for a Christian to retain it.
The only point of Arminianism four-point Calvinists believe to be biblical is point #3 � Unlimited Atonement. They believe the Bible indicates that Jesus died for the sins of everyone in the entire world. 1 John 2:2 tells us, �He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.� 2 Peter 2:1 tells us that Jesus even bought the false prophets who are doomed: �But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them�bringing swift destruction on themselves.� Jesus� death is most definitely available to anyone and everyone who will believe in Him. Jesus did not just die for those who will be saved.
Four-point Calvinism (the official position of Got Questions ministries) finds the other four points of Arminianism to be unbiblical, to varying degrees. Romans 3:10-18 strongly argues for total depravity. Conditional election underemphasizes God�s sovereignty (Romans 8:28-30). Resistible grace underestimates the power and determination of God. Conditional salvation makes salvation a work rather than a gift of grace (Ephesians 2:8-10). Although there are problems with both systems, Calvinism is far more biblically based than Arminianism. However, both systems fail to adequately explain the relationship between God�s sovereignty and mankind�s free will � due to the fact that it is impossible for a finite human mind to discern a concept only God can fully understand.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 18 Mar, 2009 03:33 PM
Walter,
A though provoking teaching. I see that when we apply one of the principles of hermeneutics and ask who Paul is speaking to, we have to ask ourselves why if once saved always saved is true, would he be warning Christians about committing apostasy. What's the point?
I have always had questions about this, if I were to choose to go back to my old lifestyle today and stay there. Would I still be saved?
What about Deuteronomy 31?
Maybe we should live as if we could forfeit our salvation.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 18 Mar, 2009 05:06 PM
Walter, Walter, Walter. What am I going to do with you? You have to stop assuming things. Paul was always talking to a mixture of true believers and new converts in all but his Pastoral epistles. Just as in most churches today.
Most important of all is the fact that Paul was trying to teach them to examine themselves, to see if they had the Spirit. No Spirit, no salvation.
It is also funny that you would dare use the race scripture to try to prove this point. Romans talks about the race as well.
9:16
So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
I would like you to think about something. No one can come to Jesus except the Father draws them. Would you say being drawn is something like being called? To me, it seems to be one and the same thing. Romans
8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
8:30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
One more thing to think about. We are each given a measure of faith. Ephesians
2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Romans
11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
So, your opinion would make God a liar. God gives us the faith, the salvation, and the grace. If you can walk away from it, you never had it. You were just playing church.
I am but an evil man, but if I give someone a gift, out of love, I am not going to take it back just because that person does something I don't like. Why would we even want a God who did that?
Let me tell you a little of my testimony. I had been saved and wandered. I ended up in prison convinced that there was no God. I stood in a classroom full of people and told the teacher,"The only reason you believe in God is because you cannot accept that when you die it is over. I still have her email address and stay in contact with her if you want confirmation.
About a month after that, I was reading on my bunk and had to find a Bible. I didn't own one, so I borrowed one. I sent away for one and I haven't quit reading it since. My point is, your Armenian view on Apostasy is false. I know it is false because of first hand experience, not my interpretation of scripture. God called me back after I publicly denied Him. Peter was taken back after denying Him. That whole teaching is false no matter how you arrived at it.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 18 Mar, 2009 05:53 PM
i agree with klmartin...
why would God give us these warnings? because its the warnings that make us not turn away.
the bible is filled with warnings to people... all through out the bible, God is constantly warning people, and even his own people. whats the point?
I believe a big reason is so we can be with out excuse. if we did turn away, we couldnt say "you never said!" or "how come you didnt tell me?"
also life is filled with warnings... if your are not warned, then whats keeping you from doing it?
true christians will take those warnings seriously, and will not turn away from God. non-true christians will not take those warnings seriously.
just remember if your warned you have no excuse... fake christians cant live a life of sin and say to God "you never said" didnt satan say something like that? "did God ever say?" Adam and Eve were warned... they had to be told... we cant be expected to know something with out first being told.
i have to go, God Bless you all... God is still a mystery ;)
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 18 Mar, 2009 08:13 PM
Ok, usually I stay out of these sortof debates, but I'm feeling compelled on this one.
I haven't read through all the Bible yet, but along with all the warnings and instructions is also all the passages about how God is Love.
I don't see or feel that God would ever turn His back on any of His children if they were reaching for Him. Lydia, I hope you don't care for me using you as an example, I don't think you will. For example, if Lydia went back to her old life, or any of us for that matter, and then wanted to come back to Him, I don't think that He would deny her. Or Leon, because that's in his testimony too.
Like I said, this is just my feeling/opinion on this matter. God is love.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 18 Mar, 2009 09:28 PM
The ultimate argument for Calvinism is prophesy. If man's free will can override God's will, then prophesy is useless. Someone could change their mind somewhere along the line, and the whole thing is rubbish. Can't happen. God is sovereign, not man. God's will is the only thing that matters.
Does anyone think Mary actually had a choice? If you read your Bible, you will know that God's will is always done, but man's will is nothing. Armenianism is just us thinking we are doing something. When will we learn that we are just not that important. God had this planned out before He ever started.
Romans
9:18
Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
9:19
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
9:20
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
I believe these few verses show what God thinks of the idea of free will.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 18 Mar, 2009 09:34 PM
Hi Phillip,
First off you did not address the scriptures I presented. This thread is about Eternal Security/OSAS/Perseverance of the Saints. Please stay on topic and if you think what I posted is in error then demonstrate within the scriptures I presented where my exegesis is wrong.
Secondly the article you presented was clearly biased and the person did not properly represent Arminian theology which is typical of a Calvinist.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 18 Mar, 2009 09:59 PM
Hi Lydia,
You made a very good observation and asked a really good question.
LYDIA: "A though provoking teaching. I see that when we apply one of the principles of hermeneutics and ask who Paul is speaking to, we have to ask ourselves why if once saved always saved is true, would he be warning Christians about committing apostasy. What''s the point? "
WALTER: Exactly! What is the point. Paul usually goes out of his way to make sure the reader knows that he is addressing real born again believers and not unbelievers. Paul wrote his letters to Christians in Christian churches. His warnings are given to real Christians not unsaved people. There is no point to warn an unsaved person that should not depart from God because they are not with God to begin with. That would be absurd. The point of warning Christians to NOT depart from God would be also absurd if that is something that could not occur.
LYDIA:"I have always had questions about this, if I were to choose to go back to my old lifestyle today and stay there. Would I still be saved?
WALTER: Good question. Your salvation is conditional upon one criterion. Do you still have faith in Christ. Do you still believe the Gospel. A Christian can only "FORFEIT" their salvation once they have totally forsaken Christ. Staying in a life of sin which is deceitful can harden the heart to a point somewhere down the road you will no longer believe in Christ and God will no longer call you to repentance. The Holy Spirit will depart and you will be eternally condemned. This is the worse sin of all as it cannot be forgiven.
LYDIA: "What about Deuteronomy 31?"
WALTER: This is a good verse as it is quoted by Paul in Hebrews 13:5 and is quoted by some who try and support the False teaching of OSAS.
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. (KJV)
It is very important to understand the context of any given passage and the Old Testament that is quoted in the New.Here is Deut 31 where Paul was quoting from.
Deu 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee. (KJV)
Deu 31:8 And the LORD, he it is that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed. (KJV)
So far it appears that God is making a blanket statement and that there is no condition implied, until you get to the end of the chapter and see what God does say in regards to His making the above statement, conditional.
Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a who ring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, AND WILL FORSAKE ME, and break my covenant which I have made with them. (KJV) Deu 31:17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, AND I WILL FORSAKE THEM, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? (KJV)
So now we see that God does in fact make his statement about not forsaking to be conditional. In other words, God will keep His part of the Covenant providing we keep our side. As long as we do not forsake God, then God will not forsake us. "IF" we do forsake God then He will forsake us. Let''s examine another passage.
2Timothy2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: IF WE DENY HIM HE WILL DENY US: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. (KJV)
In 2Timothy 2:12-13 above we see another example of Christ's conditional agreement. Many of the early Christians were faced with the choice of denying Christ, or being persecuted or martyred. Soon Christians we know will be faced with the same dreadful choice. Either deny Christ by taking the Mark of the Beast, or suffer for Him. If we deny Him, He will deny us. Verse 13 tells us why. If a Christian no longer believes the gospel and denies Christ, AND, God is always faithful, we are faced with the ultimate paradox. God would be denying Himself if the Holy Spirit remained in an unbeliever. God has no choice but to deny the apostate. Notice here that the catalyst that drives this paradox is a Christian's abandonment of his faith. Again, this is the consistent teaching of the Word of God.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 18 Mar, 2009 10:22 PM
Hi Leon,
Thanks for your reply but Brother....you did not address the scriptures I presented nor did you demonstrate where my exegesis is in error. None of the scriptures you presented refutes anything I said. By the way you know when I CAP words I am not shouting. lol
We can banter philosophy all day long but that is not how we should approach the scriptures.
You said...."Paul was always talking to a mixture of true believers and new converts in all but his Pastoral epistles. Just as in most churches today."
Could you tell me the difference between a true believer and a new convert? A new convert is some one who is now a true believer.
Did you mean true believers and non believers? How would you know this unless you were there? Are you now "assuming" this?
In John 15 who was Jesus addressing? Were not His Disciples true believers?
1Cor 15:1 Moreover,....BRETHERN,.... I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Cor 15:2 By which also.. YE ARE SAVED,.... if.... ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Was Paul addressing true believers in Corinthians? He called them "BRETHERN" and that they were SAVED. Then he warned them, the true believers of the dangers of not continuing in the faith.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he RECONCILED
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ....YE CONTINUE IN THE FAITH....grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Are people who are "RECONCILED" [past tense] true believers? So was Paul addressing true believers?
I could go on but the result would still be the same. Paul made it a point to establish that he was indeed addressing AND WARNING "True Believers" of the danger of falling away from the faith resulting in the loss of their salvation.
The Greek grammar fully supports what I have said. :peace:
