Just to be clear, I do have a belief on this subject, I'm using a question to start a discussion, not necessarily asking for help with my beliefs, although I'm open to whatever the discussion brings as far as knowledge is concerned. Please provide support for your own beliefs. I'd rather not have this descend into proving each other wrong right off the bat, I'm sure we'll get to that eventually, so if you could at least make your first post one with your evidence and faith for your own beliefs, and hold off on criticism of other posters until we get a few viewpoints out here, it would be appreciated. I'm curious about diversity on the subject, and I'd rather not nail everyone down or scare them all away at first. Thank you for your posts in advance!
1 And thence I went to another place, and he mountain [and] of hard rock. 2 And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at. 3 Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should 4 assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period [till the period appointed], till the great judgement (comes) upon them.' I saw (the spirit of) a dead man making suit, 5 and his voice went forth to heaven and made suit. And I asked Raphael the angel who was 6 with me, and I said unto him: 'This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit to heaven ' 7 And he answered me saying: 'This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men.' 8 The I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: 'Why is one separated from the other' 9 And he answered me and said unto me: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been make (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of 10 water. And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their 11 lifetime. Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits. There 12 He shall bind them for ever. And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days 13 of the sinners. Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence.' 14 The I blessed the Lord of glory and said: 'Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever.'
Then Hell, receiving Satan the prince, with sore reproach said unto him: O prince of perdition and chief of destruction, Beelzebub, the scorn of the angels and spitting of the righteous why wouldest thou do this Thou wouldest crucify the King of glory and at his decease didst promise us great spoils of his death: like a fool thou knewest not what thou didst. For behold now, this Jesus putteth to flight by the brightness of his majesty all the darkness of death, and hath broken the strong depths of the prisons, and let out the prisoners and loosed them that were bound. And all that were sighing in our torments do rejoice against us, and at their prayers our dominions are vanquished and our realms conquered, and now no nation of men feareth us any more. And beside this, the dead which were never wont to be proud triumph over us, and the captives which never could be joyful do threaten us. O prince Satan, father of all the wicked and ungodly and renegades wherefore wouldest thou do this They that from the beginning until now have despaired of life and salvation-now is none of their wonted roarings heard, neither doth any groan from them sound in our ears, nor is there any sign of tears upon the face of any of them. O prince Satan, holder of the keys of hell, those thy riches which thou hadst gained by the tree of transgression and the losing of paradise, thou hast lost by the tree of the cross, and all thy gladness hath perished. When thou didst hang up Christ Jesus the King of glory thou wroughtest against thyself and against me. Henceforth thou shalt know what eternal torments and infinite pains thou art to suffer in my keeping for ever. O prince Satan, author of death and head of all pride, thou oughtest first to have sought out matter of evil in this Jesus: Wherefore didst thou adventure without cause to crucify him unjustly against whom thou foundest no blame, and to bring into our realm the innocent and righteous one, and to lose the guilty and the ungodly and unrighteous of the whole world And when Hell had spoken thus unto Satan the prince, then said the King of glory unto Hell: Satan the prince shall be in thy power unto all ages in the stead of Adam and his children, even those that are my righteous ones.
1 And while all the saints were rejoicing, behold Satan the prince and chief of death said unto Hell: Make thyself ready to receive Jesus who boasteth himself that he is the Son of God, whereas he is a man that feareth death, and sayeth: My soul is sorrowful even unto death. And he hath been much mine enemy, doing me great hurt, and many that I had made blind, lame, dumb, leprous, and possessed he hath healed with a word: and some whom I have brought unto thee dead, them hath he taken away from thee.
2 Hell answered and said unto Satan the prince: Who is he that is so mighty, if he be a man that feareth death for all the mighty ones of the earth are held in subjection by my power, even they whom thou hast brought me subdued by thy power. If, then, thou art mighty, what manner of man is this Jesus who, though he fear death, resisteth thy power If he be so mighty in his manhood, verily I say unto thee he is almighty in his god-head, and no man can withstand his power. And when he saith that he feareth death, he would ensnare thee, and woe shall be unto thee for everlasting ages. But Satan the prince of Tartarus said: Why doubtest thou and fearest to receive this Jesus which is thine adversary and mine For I tempted him, and have stirred up mine ancient people of the Jews with envy and wrath against him. I have sharpened a spear to thrust him through, gall and vinegar have I mingled to give him to drink, and I have prepared a cross to crucify him and nails to pierce him: and his death is nigh at hand, that I may bring him unto thee to be subject unto thee and me.
3 Hell answered and said: Thou hast told me that it is he that hath taken away dead men from me. For there be many which while they lived on the earth have taken dead men from me, yet not by their own power but by prayer to God, and their almighty God hath taken them from me. Who is this Jesus which by his own word without prayer hath drawn dead men from me Perchance it is he which by the word of his command did restore to life Lazarus which was four days dead and stank and was corrupt, whom I held here dead. Satan the prince of death answered and said: It is that same Jesus. When Hell heard that he said unto him: I adjure thee by thy strength and mine own that thou bring him not unto me. For at that time I, when I heard the command of his word, did quake and was overwhelmed with fear, and all my ministries with me were troubled. Neither could we keep Lazarus, but he like an eagle shaking himself leaped forth with all agility and swiftness, and departed from us, and the earth also which held the dead body of Lazarus straightway gave him up alive. Wherefore now I know that that man which was able to do these things is a God strong in command and mighty in manhood, and that he is the saviour of mankind. And if thou bring him unto me he will set free all that are here shut up in the hard prison and bound in the chains of their sins that cannot be broken, and will bring them unto the life of his god head for ever.
V (XXI)
1 And as Satan the prince, and Hell, spoke this together, suddenly there came a voice as of thunder and a spiritual cry: Remove, O princes, your gates, and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in. When Hell heard that he said unto Satan the prince: Depart from me and go out of mine abode: if thou be a mighty man of war, fight thou against the King of glory. But what hast thou to do with him And Hell cast Satan forth out of his dwelling. Then said Hell unto his wicked ministers: Shut ye the hard gates of brass and put on them the bars of iron and withstand stoutly, lest we that hold captivity be taken captive.
2 But when all the multitude of the saints heard it, they spake with a voice of rebuking unto Hell: Open thy gates, that the King of glory may come in. And David cried out, saying: Did I not when I was alive upon earth, foretell unto you: Let them give thanks unto the Lord, even his mercies and his wonders unto the children of men; who hath broken the gates of brass and smitten the bars of iron in sunder he hath taken them out of the way of their iniquity. And thereafter in like manner Esaias said: Did not I when I was alive upon earth foretell unto you: The dead shall arise, and they that are in the tombs shall rise again, and they that are in the earth shall rejoice, for the dew which cometh of the Lord is their healing And again I said: O death, where is thy sting O Hell, where is thy victory
3 When they heard that of Esaias, all the saints said unto Hell: Open thy gates: now shalt thou be overcome and weak and without strength. And there came a great voice as of thunder, saying: Remove, O princes, your gates, and be ye lift up ye doors of hell, and the King of glory shall come in. And when Hell saw that they so cried out twice, he said, as if he knew it not: Who is the King of glory And David answered Hell and said: The words of this cry do I know, for by his spirit I prophesied the same; and now I say unto thee that which I said before: The Lord strong and mighty, the Lord mighty in battle, he is the King of glory. And: The Lord looked down from heaven that he might hear the groanings of them that are in fetters and deliver the children of them that have been slain. And now, O thou most foul and stinking Hell, open thy gates, that the King of glory may come in. And as David spake thus unto Hell, the Lord of majesty appeared in the form of a man and lightened the eternal darkness and brake the bonds that could not be loosed: and the succour of his everlasting might visited us that sat in the deep darkness of our transgressions and in the shadow of death of our sins.
VI (XXII)
1 When Hell and death and their wicked ministers saw that, they were stricken with fear, they and their cruel officers, at the sight of the brightness of so great light in their own realm, seeing Christ of a sudden in their abode, and they cried out, saying: We are overcome by thee. Who art thou that art sent by the Lord for our confusion Who art thou that without all damage of corruption, and with the signs () of thy majesty unblemished, dost in wrath condemn our power Who art thou that art so great and so small, both humble and exalted, both soldier and commander, a marvelous warrior in the shape of a bondsman, and a King of glory dead and living, whom the cross bare slain upon it Thou that didst lie dead in the sepulchre hast come down unto us living and at thy death all creation quaked and all the stars were shaken and thou hast become free among the dead and dost rout our legions. Who art thou that settest free the prisoners that are held bound by original sin and restorest them into their former liberty Who art thou that sheddest thy divine and bright light upon them that were blinded with the darkness of their sins After the same manner all the legions of devils were stricken with like fear and cried out all together in the terror of their confusion, saying: Whence art thou, Jesus, a man so mighty and bright in majesty, so excellent without spot and clean from sin For that world of earth which hath been always subject unto us until now, and did pay tribute to our profit, hath never sent unto us a dead man like thee, nor ever dispatched such a gift unto Hell. Who then art thou that so fearlessly enterest our borders, and not only fearest not our torments, but besides essayest to bear away all men out of our bonds Peradventure thou art that Jesus, of whom Satan our prince said that by thy death of the cross thou shouldest receive the dominion of the whole world.
2 Then did the King of glory in his majesty trample upon death, and laid hold on Satan the prince and delivered him unto the power of Hell, and drew Adam to him unto his own brightness.
Yes, I don't mean to be hard-nosed, but I would prefer bible references, at least in addition to the extra-biblical sources, and I most desire personal beliefs than anything else. Interesting reading, yes, but I would like to know what people believe.
I believe when one dies their soul goes straight to heaven or hell, on the second coming the body reunites with their soul in heaven and the souls that went to hell reunite with their body and become the walking dead, whaling and grinding their teeth.
I believe when one dies their soul goes straight to heaven or hell, on the second coming the body reunites with their soul in heaven and the souls that went to hell reunite with their body and become the walking dead, whaling and grinding their teeth.
This is a note i wrote on my facebook page many months ago thinking about this topic.
Not to many people like to talk about this topic. I would rather encourage individuals with the love, Grace and Mercy of God.
But I think I need to write concerning this topic because I believe it is misunderstood by both Christians and non believers.
As Christians we need to be clear about this topic with individuals so we represent God properly and in truth.
The big question we hear is how can a loving God send people to hell?
I will address this question latter. Lets look at why hell is hell.
What makes up the fire of hell? How does fire burn eternally? How is a person in fire yet not consumed? What makes up the worm in hell? Why is hell complete darkness?
If we look at the nature of who God is then hell makes sense. But we have to understand in fullness who God is.
I would wounder about these sort of questions but since they really didn't effect my life they didn't seem to matter much. I have come to understand that knowing the answer helps me to relate to those individuals the reality of hell in a personal sense. It helps me to put the responsibility where it truly belongs. You see God relates to us personally but we don't really think about how hell will relate to individuals personally as well.
To answer the questions about what makes the fire, worm etc of hell? It will be the individual's hatred of God that will burn like fire inside them. It will be the individuals knowledge of who God is in His fullness and love toward them. The love they personally rejected. Them remembering for eternity all the times God reached out to them. This will be a worm eating inside them. When they stand before God He will reveal all this to them. God will reveal the perfect plan He had for their lives. God will reveal His sacrifice and His payment that was made personally on their behalf.
I personally believe these individuals will experience in fullness the pure full love of God. I personally believe they will experience the express broken heart of God toward their rejection of Him.
But throughout eternity their remembering will not produce love in return toward God but a deeper hatred for God and even more so a hatred of their selves. They will have a hatred for those who led them in their lies toward God.
You see Hell will be the ever increasing emotions of hatred, loneliness, dispair. These emotions will eat and burn at individuals for eternity never allowing them to be consumed.
The people who feel they are living good lives and even those who are deluded in thinking they are following God will also experience these intense feelings. They will spend eternity blaming God. They will spend eternity in their hatred toward God, for Him not being part of their self delusion and self exaltation.
They will spend eternity in their minds eye believing they should have gotten in to heaven on their good works. Even though they see and experience the purity of Jesus righteousness they will in their pride blame God. They will spend eternity in hatred toward God.
You see I can relate to this because if it were me I would feel this way toward God. Thanks be it to God I don't feel nothing but love for Him. It is because He loved me so deeply that my heart responds toward love to Him.
Any ways...Now we can relate better in what the experience of Hell will be like. I don't have any concrete evidence of these things because I have never been there and it is is not really spelled our in scripture like this. So this is one mans opinion on the individuals experience of hell.
But understanding my own human nature and the nature of God helps me to draw these sort of conclusions. It helps me understand more what the experience must look like.
I believe the punishment of Hell will be self inflicted. This is the bottom line. Since God will not be there and since Satin will be bound and since individuals will be alone. Oh they might be capable of hearing other moans and cries and even the hatred coming out of other individuals. They will be so wrapped up in self that nothing else and no one else will matter to them.
We see evidence of this already in our physical world. Youths cutting and damaging their bodies out of self hatred and self mutilation. Their damaging their selves out of hatred for some abuse they experienced. We see individuals, families, cities, states and counties in decline due to the egotistic selfish nature of individuals.This is the result of a sin filled world we are a part of.
Look around you and see the hatred in the eyes of people. The hatred that is growing toward God and one another.
This brings me to the last question. Why does a loving God send individuals to hell?
Well He doesn't....What He doesn't. That is what I have been taught by my pastor.
If I were to tell you that their are some things that God can not do, how would you feel about that. Would you respond....Well He is God and He can do anything.
You are wrong. God can not do anything.
He can not go against His nature. He cant make a rock to big to lift which is silly to think about any way.
But concerning Hell. God is pure and perfect. He can not allow any thing that defiles in His presence. Or should I say it this way. NOTHING that is defiled can withstand His presence.
Do you hear this. Those individuals who are defiled will NOT be able to withstand His presence. Those individuals who have rejected God will not all of a sudden want God.
You see it is the Spirit of God in us. His Spirit causes our hearts over time to want God more and more. When God reached out to us and we responded to Him our hearts were now joined with the Spirit of God.
We being able to stand in Gods presence is only because JESUS righteousness. His death and payment for our sins covers our unrighteousness no matter how bad it is.
These individuals that stand one day in the presence of God alone. By their selves. They will not want God then or ever.
Then they, their selves will want to flee from Gods presence and God in agreement with them will cast them out of His presence.
So what is out side of Gods presence. Nothingness....No light or beauty. No joy or peace. No love or forgiveness. No Grace or Mercy. Not even any of Gods creation because even in Gods creation is His Glory.
So what is left that is out side of Gods presence? Rejecting individuals. Individuals who have rejected God.
They will make up Hell. Their own emotions will be their torture. They will torture their selves through out eternity.
So don't ever allow another to put the blame on God for hell. Don't ever allow your self to blame God for anything destructive.
We bring it upon our selves. Other sin filled individuals bring it upon us.
If need be now you can defend your faith and even defend God.
But get to know Him more or Just reach out to get to know Him for the first time. You have a life time and even a eternity moving either toward God or away from Him.
God wants every individual to want Him and so do I. I agree with God in His desire that NO individual will perish but have ever lasting life.
Jesus tells us....( I am the way, the truth and the life NO man comes unto the Father but by me)
Without the blood of Jesus people are lost in seperation from God. You have only this life to become right with God by .....
Jesus says ...Whoever believes in me shall not perish but have everlasting life.
Yes, it is the persons choice not God that sends them (destine) to Hell. Thanks, I have had people ask this question in my presence and did not know what to say. This will help me to explain. I have also heard people that are not sure if they believe say, why are we to fear God? Can you help me to explain this as well. Being a believer my whole life I don 't know how to respond, don 't get me wrong I 'm not saying you havn 't been yourself.
