I have searched the scriptures and I cannot agree with the Baptist view of uncondiotional eternal salvation. I mean entire chapter of Eze. 18 and 33 are addressing that very issue. James 1:22-23 "but be doers of the word, and not hearers only DECEIVING yourselves" ,and again James 2:17 "faith by itself is a dead faith". There is a whole lot more, but you see preachers teaching once you have been saved always saved. It never says that once in the Bible once you have accepted Jesus in your life that that act in itself is enough. It does say in 2 Chron. 15: 2 "forsake the Lord and He will forsake you!". Isn't scripture truth? Yes! So if I turn or forsake God, scripture says that He will forsake us, me , YOU! If that isn't true then we call God a liar, right? Well thats my question and I know it's a toughie but I don't want to steer anyone wrong so I'm gettin some sound advice first... thanks!
This debate is centuries old, and you will get scripture whipped, what ever side you choose. I will not do that to you, but I will try to explain the Baptist view. But be ready because your question will be answered with plenty of scripture from others. There are hundreds of verses used by both sides.
The Baptist believe that it is a matter of really being saved in the first place. If you truly believe, and accept Christ, the Holy Spirit comes to live inside of you, and changes you from the inside out. If the Spirit dwells in you, you will display certain characteristics, known as the fruits of the spirit. Notice these are not your fruits, but the spirit's fruits. If you have to make yourself do these things, the spirit is not in you. It is time to get on your knees and try again, remember faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
Many times, people say the sinners prayer, and nothing changes. These people think they are saved, but they are not. That is why the Apostles commanded us over and over again to examine ourselves. Notice that the fruits of the Spirit have nothing to do with you, it is part of the work of the Spirit in you. You have no choice in this, once you accept Christ for real, the Spirit does the work, convicting and teaching, until the day you are perfected. You will change, but only IF you were really converted. The key to all this is the self examination.
Romans 5:8 says that the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Salvation is a gift, but it has to be accepted with a true belief, or faith. A proclamation of belief is never enough, you can say anything. It has to come from the heart. Jer. 17:9, The heart is deceitful above all else, and desperately wicked, who can know it? See, we examine ourselves to see if our own heart has deceived us.
Like I said, get ready. You will be flooded with scripture from both sides on this issue.
u are quoting old testament scripture to back up your point?
ephesians says that after we believe we are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. meaning? Til we are glorified.
Timothy says when we are faithless He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. Collosians says that we are complete in Him.
We are accepted in the Beloved. Hebrews says that God has perfected FOREVER those who are being sanctified
People who don't believe in security simply do not understand what justification is. It is not being made righteous, but being PRONOUNCED righteous, even when we still have sin. While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. If God cannot hold us, are you saying YOUR faith and works can hold you? Who is that focused on more, you or God? Christ said NO ONE will snatch u from His hand. that also means you can't jump out!!
Just some thoughts. i know one thing for sure, i do not want to cross that line where you could lose salvation, even if i could. God will judge us if we fall away. I didn't say hell, but judgement can happen without it being hell you know. When we focus on ourselves we will NEVER be sure we are really saved. If you are, then you are self righteous and have no idea what your sin is.
But if we focus on Christ, then there is liberty, peace, and security. God looks on Him, how can He reject Him?
The Very Phrase of "Unconditional Eternal Salvation" is a "Misnomer"...No such thing...We ALL know that "Salvation"
Itself is "Conditional"...
How Then Could "Eternal Salvation" be "Unconditional"???
... and How I do wish that I could stop right there & not say another word..
But I know that that is not really answering the real Central Question that you are really asking...Or does It??
But I do think that Leons answer is something that I Absolutely Agree With...If You Are TRUELY Saved..You ARE ETERNALLY Saved
So You are absolutely correct Cross Guy...This is a Very Tough Question..Why?
Because it deals with the Eternal Salvation of another persons Soul, which is not for any other man to Judge...
We can look for the Fruits of the Spirit...but they can be Faked & We can be Fooled.
We can look at a persons actions, but we may not see the True Purpose of those actions.
We can look at a Persons Morals & Ethics...but ultimately we judge them only by our own standards..with no knowledge of the reason for, the lessons to be learned by, or the Ultimate Outcome of That Other Persons Ways.
Only YHWH Knows the Heart & the Mission, & the Sucess or Failure of each persons Unique Destiny & Purpose & Place..
And Only Yahshua may Judge that Heart & the Faith, & the Ultimate Sucess or Failure of that persons life, regardless of the pits they may have fallen into along the way.
But I see that I wont have time to finish my thoughts on this right now...
But I do want to throw in one verse that actually probably wont help answer the question...
But it actually presents an even bigger question...so I guess if you figure that one out, then this one will be childs play!!
So my question is...In order to be "Sanctified & Ordained" by Yahweh you would have to be "Saved" First right?
So in order to take this defunct discussion to the next level let me just quote Jeremiah 1:5...
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; & before thou camest forth out of the womb I Sanctified thee; & I Ordained thee a prophet unto the nations...
"Eternal Salvation" huh?..
"Eternal" means without beginning or end..
If you cant see it from that one verse then read more...Because Jeremiahs Salvation was guaranteed to him before he was even conceived in the womb...and He was even guaranteed that he could not fail...
You may say that that example is different because
He was a Prophet with a special mission to accomplish in life...
At which point I would have to say to you that:
You Are A Person With Special Mission To Accomplish In Life
How can we even presume to be able to address-With Certainty-this question of Unconditional Eternal Salvation
when I, For One, can not even say-With Certainty-which of my departed Friends or Family members were even saved.
But YHH Alone of the arena of mans intended knowledge
i believe in security, but please go to the New Testament :)
that just isnt talking about salvation.
its a big mistake to assume alot of verses are always speaking of salvation. Alot of Old Testament verses are not speaking of salvation at all.
and when salvation is mentioned, which salvation? Paul was saved in a shipwreck, does that mean he was going to heaven? NO. the same word can be used in different ways, just like we have in english. Context determines the meaning of the word
