i chose to make a new topic because i wanted to add some thoughts that
were of a different subject kind of... i have been wanting to post this for almost a week :/ but i have been
doing a lot of research thanks to the challenges presented by klmartin and walter4u :) i am always learning something, and i have switched my views a few times on whether its arminian or calvin... if you are hardcore arminian or a hardcore calvin, i think the scriptures then begin to contradict themselves... or they appear too... i have seen very little attempt at either side argueing away those verses presented at them... its like people believe some scripture, but ignore others...it lies in between both i think...i read one view which seems to bring the scriptures together... ill get to that later. but i think i stand with that one.
"1John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that."
it seems this verse is a debatable one... the sin not unto death is a sin commited by a christian brother, John even connects brethren with sin not unto death...there is no sin that a christian can commit that leads to death, but pray for him so that he may be lifted up. notice he doesn't connect brethren with the sin leading to death. so that sin leading to death is only commited by a non-christian. i also read that, "a" sin and "the" sin is translated assumption. and so in the
also some scholars believe "sin unto death" is talking about a physical death. a good example if a man gets behind the wheel drunk and crashes and dies. that would be a "sin unto death".
or another belief, is an crime commited such as murder in which the murder would be put to death by the law. that would be a "sin unto death"... in Moses time, there were
many "sins unto death".
another common view is the "sin unto death" is the unpardonable sin, which there are so many views of also.
or even paul says "the wages of sin is death" which means all sins lead to death, but if you are forgiven, then they dont lead to death. so the distinction betweens sins not leading to death and sins unto death, in otherwords if your a christian you commit sins that dont lead to death, but if your not a christian you commit sins that lead to death.
"James 5:19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."
this could be talking about a non-genuine christian... not a true christian. we have all seen them... also the word sinner used in scripture only of the unbelievers. Christians are no longer characterized as sinners, but as rightous. the bible distinguishes the sinner from the rightous. there are a few verses in the bible thats says that sinners will not enter the kingdom of God. we may still sin, but God no longer sees our sin, but he sees the Rightousness of Jesus in us.
plus even if brethren refers to only christians, he is talking to only the christians... in the church there are those among you, that are not brethren. as in there are wolves amongst the sheep. it can mean "if there are unbelievers among you"
"Heb 3:12-14
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"
(KJV)
i admit, i had a hard time finding anything that could resonably argue this one away... but i did find something interesting on one website... which i did a lot of time thinking about. its the one in between...
its not that once you are a true christian, you cant fall from faith. its that if your a true christian you wont fall from faith. soooo "you can but you wont". even paul later says he has confidence that christians wont.
think about this... could it be said that "a man can be perfect, but he wont"? is the man "forced to sin?" if he is, then where is your free will now? i believe the man is never forced to sin, and sins of his own freewill. he might not think twice about it, but he made the choice to sin. if you choose to sin, then you can choose not to sin, which means that you can be holy... but you wont. you can, but you wont. Did God ever say in the Bible that a man cant be holy? or does he say that he will not be holy or just plain isnt holy? man is, but he isnt forced to be. of his own free will he sins, but isnt forced to sin. so with our freewill we have to options... we have the option to sin or not to sin. or do we have no free will? are we forced to sin? we have the choice to be holy or unholy... or do we have no free will and we are forced to live unholy...
i believe we have complete freewill, but if you are a christian you WILL hold on to the end. if your not a true christian YOU will not... i didnt say can not, but i said will not. to say a christian can not and to say a christan will not are two different things, i already showed how they are. still not convinced?
think about the last time you sinned, and the thoughts goin through your head before you sinned... was the option to not sin there? of course. you were not forced to sin, but you chose to sin. never were you forced to be unholy, but you chose to be unholy. as an unbeliever we are not willing to seek God, unless God opens our eyes... its not that we can not, but we will not. BIG DIFFERENCE.
all those verses present warnings are more of encouragement. also hebrews was possibly (still debated) written to new christian converts who were previously jews and were under persecution and were tempted to fall away
as to not be persecuted... now, wouldnt you think these new converts who had very little knowledge of their new faith, would need encouragement? in the form of warnings? this is the milk that their baby like faith needed... what would have happened if they were not warned? i am sure more would have departed, then actually did... thanks to these very serious warnings. those who didnt know God turn coward, but those who God chose.. he gave them strength to stand their ground...could they all have chose to
turned coward? yes but those who were true christians didnt... they could have, but they didnt. just like those who were not true christians, could have stayed their ground, but they didnt. i see those verses basicly as
God saying "dont think because I you are forgiven, you can then sin freely. but because i have put my spirit into you, you will not! for i have wrote my law into your hearts and into your mind"
�Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.� Matthew 7:22, 23
if you know someone who was once a so called "committed" christian but know longer is... according to God, he never knew him... not that he knew him once or twice... or that he use to know him, he NEVER knew him. there are more then enough verses in the bible that use "Gods chosen" or "the elect" which is talkin about true christians.
Good study. I agree that the truth lies somewhere in the middle of the two theologies. I have posted that a couple of times so that people didn't think I am a Calvinist. I think the argument has been going on so long that all either side cares about is discrediting the other.
As for 1 John 5:16, when it says a brother, I believe you are correct, that means a Christian. However, when it says you see them committing a sin not leading to death, that offers up a distinction, showing that both types are available to a Christian. If there was only sin not leading to death for a Christian, why say it? Why not just say, if you se a brother sinning? So, the very fact that it is separated, proves that a brother can do both. This is held up by part b of the scripture. There is sin unto death, I do not say you should pray about that.
well, what about thesin undto death is a literal death. because i can not think of one sin that leads unto a spiritual death, other then rejection of christ. which can only be done be a non-christian... even if a christian chooses to reject christ after once receiving him, i doubt the writer of John is saying dont pray for him, because for all we know he may just be backsliding.
Apostasy, or blasphemy of the Holy Spirit are both sins that are unforgivable, all else will be forgiven. There are some that believe that John is talking about physical death here, but everything else is in the context of the spirit, so most don't agree with this position.
what blaspheming the spirit and how one does it, is also a very debatable subject.
a sin is anything in Gods eyes that is evil, or not of God. to deny Jesus as your savior is a sin... in itself... that sin leads you to death. and jesus says there is one sin that is unforgivable... if to reject christ is a sin, and you are not forgiven for it. then that must be the unforgivable sin? obviously rejecting Jesus is a sin... and jesus says only "1" unforgivable sin. so there cant be anymore unforgivable sins...
Sorry I missed this post of yours! i will respond to it Saturday evening. Got a errands to run, a date to go on and then Kayaking in the AM.
By the way. Arminian theology is sometimes confused with Wesleyan theology. We will discuss this too. When you bring all three into the equation Calvinism is on one end, Wesleyan is on the other and Arminian is somewhere in the middle.
