This discussion will be a controversial one no doubt but one that I hope all will be open to searching out God's truth as opposed to having preconceptions about what we believe or have been taught.
In dealing with the Spiritual Gifts in the New Testament it is interesting to note that after the initial occurrance at Pentecost in the upper room when the Holy Spirit for the first time descended upon all the disciples that were there, there was only one exception when the Holy Spirit gave gifts prior to the laying on of hands by the Apostles. However an Apostle was present.
The incident was dealing with Peter who was not with the program so to speak so the Holy Spirit had to get him moving. haha. Other than that no one after ever received any of the spiritual gifts UNLESS the Apostles personally laid their hands on that person or the Apostles were at least present. It is also interesting to note that only the Apostles had the power to lay hands and impart spiritual gifts. Whoever received the spiritual gifts never had the power to impart those gifts to someone else. The person receiving gifts had the power of using the gifts but not to pass on the gifts themselves.
One of the most critical passages concerning this issue is below in Acts 8.
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
Notice that Phillip was utilizing the power of the gifts he had but also notice that the Apostles had to come and lay hands in order for other people to receive the gifts themselves. Phillip did NOT have the power to impart any gifts himself.
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
What is often misunderstood by Charismatics and Pentecostals is that when the scriptures talk about the Holy Spirit "falling down" on someone it is not talking about "Salvation" as everyone who places their faith in Christ, repents and is Baptized automatically receives the Holy Spirit Himself. When scripture speaks of the Holy Spirit falling upon someone or they had not received the Holy Spirit as yet, it is speaking about the impartation of the gifts.
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. (talking about gifts)
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." NKJV
What did Simon observe?
That the Apostles had a special power no one else had and that power was the ability to lay hands on people and impart the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In other terms, the Holy Spirit only imparted the gifts THROUGH the Apostles by their laying on of their hands. This is the normal method in which the Holy Spirit operated. There was one other instance where people received the gifts without the laying on of hands by the Apostles BUT the Apostles were still present when this occurred.
Let's look at Romans and take notice of something that also supports the other scriptures.
In Rome a church had been formed but no Apostles had yet visited it and established it.
Rom 1:10 making request if, by some means, now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you.
11 For I long to see you, THAT I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established�
12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. NKJV
Here we see that the Roman Christians who were "saved" had not as yet received any supernatural "gifts". So it demonstrates that receiving gifts was not something the Holy Spirit did automatically upon salvation.
What had to happen?
An Apostle of Jesus Christ had to be physically present to impart the gifts through the "laying on of hands".
Here is another passage dealing with the special powers given exclusively to the Apostles and those who had received the gifts AT THAT TIME.
Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
15 & 16 applies to us today as well as this is a commandment for us to spread the Gospel.
17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
Verse 17 & 18 are not for the church today as no one has the legitimate gifts imparted by the Apostles of Christ because they are all dead and in Heaven now. No one today can cast out a demon nor drink poison and expect to live or handle a deadly snake and once bitten expect to live. No one also can lay hands on the sick and heal them today. God can do it and does perform miracles but no human has the" supernatural power" that the 12 Apostles of Jesus Christ had. There are many fakers, many frauds and many well meaning deceived Christians who believe that they posses a "supernatural gift" from the Holy Spirit. The problem is that their beliefs are based upon some really bad teachings from gross misinterpretations of scriptures and "feelings". Men like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and their ilk have all been exposed for their fraudulent practices and giving False Prophesies...yet...people still follow them and will not accept the truth about them.
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they [the Apostles]went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them [ the Apostles] and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. NKJV
I want to point out a few things here. First when the scripture here referres to "these signs will follow those that believe" and they will take up serpents, etc.,...this is talking about those who received the word of God FROM the Apostles and had hands laid upon them BY the Apostles of Christ. That as we have seen above is the normal method that a person received a spiritual gift. This is the proper interpretation of this passage. Now what is the "application" of this so far? Can we apply this for Christians today? I don't believe so because if that were true then Christians claiming to have received supernatural gifts would have these exact same powers as those above. They/ WE would be able to handle serpents and not be harmed... and also we could drink poisons and not be harmed. So I do not see any Biblical evidence to support the gifts being for today.
Walter and Leon, i love you both, and think that you both have it going on. BUT in some spirutla matter as to what Walter has stated in his topic on spiritual gifts and the Holy Spirit, I do finf many errors that I have no choice but to address and take issues with, in order to present more detail spiritual insight and spirtual knowledge and understanding of what God is saying in His word.
If we are to deal with God's truths, let do it with spiritual knowledge and insight rather than, the teachings of Southern Baptist's thought of views and/or doctrines, as well as other denominational views and their doctrines. Let's look at what God is saying and what Luke has written in his account of the book the Acts of the Holy Spirit trhoguh the works that was done by the hands of the Apostles....
Walter, I must take what you have written in parts becaue there is no quote buttons, so that I can follow what you have presented, and I am unable to remember all that you have posted.
So here we go: Part I
(1) You state that the Holy Spirit only descended upon the disciples in the upper room, and I find this in error. According to scripture, The Holy Spirit descended upon ALL who were gathered together in prayer on the Day of Pentecost in the upper room.
Acts chapter 1: verses 12 -26, tells that not only were the disciples in the upper room, but ALL the disciples continued in prayer with one accord and making supplication with the women(could have been their wives, but the word doesn't tell us who these women were) but we do know that Mary the mother of Jesus, and Jesus' brothers were also in the upper room praying and waiting for the promise of the Holy Spirit along with the disciples.
Then in Acts chapter 2: verses 1-4, we are told that, everyone in the upper room were ALL in one accord in one (the same place). And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it (the wind) filled the whole house where they (so who are the they?... all those who were in theupper room), where they were sitting. And there appeared to them(again all who were in the house), cloven tongues as of fire, and it sat upon each of them (does not say just the disciples, but each of them, which means all who were in the house). And they were ALL filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them words to speak. Thus, this let's us know that the Hly Spirit was not just poured out upon the discipes but upon everyone who was in the house including the women and the brothers of Jesus.
You also state that the Holy Spirit was only pour out another time and something about Peter, which I don't understand what you are saying. Nevertheless, we find that in Acts chapters 10-11, that God also pourout His Spirit upon the Gentile Cornelious just as He did Peter and those in the upper room without the laying on of hands. Why did this happen? Becasue God had already promise that He would send His Spirit upon the Jews first and then the Gentiles. Cornelious was the first Gentile to receive the Holy Spirit as on the Day of Pentecost, this was to show God's power to the Gentiles and show the Jews that this promise was nto only for them, but also for the Gentiles.
The reason Peter was present in becasue God sent him to preach the gospel to the Gentiles (Cornelious) and Cornelious became the first of the Gentiles to receive the promise of the Father. This is why Peter when through what he did in Acts chapter 9, with the different kinds of meats , he called unclean, God was ppreparaing him for his mission of the gosple to the Gentiles. The Jews call edthe Gentiles dogs and felt they were unclean, so God showed Peter that God had the pwoer to clean who and whatsoever He chose to make clean, and for Peter to never call what God had cleaned unclean... Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdon to start the first chruch and to be the first of the disciples to preach the gosple to the Jews and the Gentiles, so this is why Peter was present when Cornelious received the Holy Spirit without laying on of hands. God had promised that the Gentiles would receive His Spirit just as the Jews had received His Spirit from God Himself.
Also, you stated that the apostle gave out gifts. That is in error, The apostles did not give out any gifts whatsoever. After God had poured out His Spirit on the Jews first, then the Gentiles Cornelious, The apostles were then empowered by God with the abilitiy to lay hands on people so that they to might receive the Spirit of the Lord. This was God shwing us that not only is He the power, but as Jesus so stated, God is the one who will give us power throught the Holt Spirit, as in Matthew chapter 28, verses 18-20, Mark chapter 16: verses 14-18; and Luke chapter 24: verses 44-53. So that the works of the Great Commission Jesus gave to all who believe might be fulfilled. The power the apostles had was only to lay hands on people and pray for them, the works of the gifts were given by the Holy Spirit, not the disciples who were first called apostles by Jesus during His ministry on here in the gospels. Whe their names were changed, Jesus also changed their titles from disciples to apostles whne He sent them out.
Now the other things is your interpretation of what happened in Acts chapter 8. You start with verse 2, which misinterpreta the complete meaning of this chapter. In order for interpretation to be spiritually understood with insight and meaning to gain knowledge, the compete passage nust be given so others will know what is going on, and why things happened as they did. I have my Bible so I will start at the beginning of the passage to make things clearer. Also, remember, Philip was one of the disciples Jesus called in the gospels, so Philip was filled with the Holy Spirit unlike what you stated.
I will come back with Acts chapter 8, I must read what you have posted about it.
I have to agree with Walter on this one. I know your arguments Ella, I just don't agree with them. Walter actually posted one of the most concise studies of this, that I have ever seen. Well thought out and articulate in nature.
I am not saying that God is limited, just that it is not happening today. I know there are miracle healings, but it is God doing it through the power of prayer. God is not limited, we are. Paul's handkerchief was passed around to heal people...doesn't happen today. People claim to be able to heal, but what do they do? They pray....quite a difference from what was happening in Acts.
Regarding Acts chapter 8, sorry, I meant to say that you started with verse 12. Instead you should have started with verse 4 to get the whole picture as to why things happend as they did.
I won't write all of this but just up to your points, if I can remember them.
Acts chapter 8:verses 4-7
Therefore, those who were scattered went everywhere preaching the word. Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. For unclean spirits, crying with a cloud voice, came out of many who were possessed, and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed. ( this proves that Philip was also filled with the Holy Spirit to work signs and wonder, unlike what you said that he didn't have the Holy Spirit).
Acts 8: verses 8-11. And there was great joy in the city. But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great, to whom they(the people) all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is the great power of God." And they listen to him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time. (all the people were under Simons demonic spell). But when they BELIEVED Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ (the gospel), both men and women were baptized.
Acts chapter 8: verses 13-17.
Then Simon himself also believed, and when he was baptized he continued with Philip. and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done. (Simon believed and was baptized, but he was not fully converted, as some believers are today). Now when the apostles who were in Jerusalem HEARD that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter(remember Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom to start the first church and to preach the gospel to the Jews first and the Gentiles second), they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had arrived, they(Peter & John) prayed for the people first, that they might received the Holy Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit had not come (God had not sent or shown His power through the Holy Spirit to that region as of yet, to this group of Jews who were of mixed blood, and the pure blood Jews had already received the Spirit of the Lord This is also a setup by God for Peterleading into chapter 9-11). They had ONLY been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. It was in God's plan to delay His put outpouring of His Spirit until AFTER Peter and John had arrived, because the continued church and promise to the Jews would be brought forth by Peter as proof to the Jews that the power of God was indeed real. So by Peter laying on of hands in the Samarain church, this would hopefull stop all rumors, because the people trusted Peter, and were the kind of believers who had to see before they believed.
Acts chapter 8: verse 17. So Peter and John laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.
God started the first church in Jerusalem and with the Gentiles to show Himself in power. Then Peter was called to start the first churches in Samaria among the Jews, and among other Gentiles to show God's power working in Him. This is why the people of Samaria nor did anyone else after Pentecost and Cornelious receive the Holy Spirit by God pouring out His Spirit as He did on the day of Pentecost and upon Cornelious, other than by laying on of hands. God started His first chrurch in His own power with the Jews first, then the Gentiles. Then He started the church working His power through men whom He had anointed by His Holy Spirit to start His church upon this rock...
Just had to make clear some thing I disagree with you on. Of course, if you disagree with my spiritual interpretation of what happen, lets' have a discussion. I did not go into all the rest you wrote, it takes to much time. Some I agree with and some I see in error...
I understand what you're saying. However, I see the reason that there are no miracles and signs and wonder to the extent as were in the first century. As it being that NO ONE is preaching Christ as did the disciples in sincere belief today. No not one minister or preacher can you find who is preaching under the influence of the Holy Spirit of the Living God in His power. They may sound good and say good things but to minister and draw a person to Christ with conviction of the Holy Spirit, it ain't happening. God is not ging to gie out His gifts when there is unbelief. I you don't believe that the power of the Holy Spirit can work in you as He did in the disciples, do you really think God is going to give you His power? Some people today don't even believe when they are saved, not to speak about Holy Ghost pwoer to heal.:glow: what did Jesu say, believ and do not doubt...
We all as believers are filled with the Holy Spirit upon our belief, repentance and confession of Jesus Christ as our Savior. BUT, to be baptized with the fire of the Holy Spirit is indeed another process that no one is willing to submit to. This mean making a total commitment and sacrifice of all things in our lives we call important in our personal lives, totally sold out to Christ and the gospel, no matter who or what we must give up. So who deos this today as the disciples did back then. NO ONE!
Paul says, in Philippians chapter 1, that he was not ashamed of the gospel whether he died or to lived becaue of the cause of the gospel. How many preachers or christian do you know who are willing to sacrifice their lives for the sakes of the gospel? So that the gospel might spread and God be magnified, as Paul says not only in his body, whether by life or by death. You can't find ministers or chirctains who profess and confess Christ to be faithful to atten church every Sunday, not to speak of laying down their life for the sake of the gospel. No tmany christian or preachers are committed to confront sin, as did the disciples. And you wonder why nothing is happening by th epwoer of the Holt Spirit. You can't submit, commit, omit, permit sin and then expect to operate in the Spirit. We are not to grieve the Spirit, not reject the endwelling power of the Holy Spirit, nor surpress the outpouring of the Holy Spirit
Miracles and signs and wonder are still being performed through the powerr of the Holy Spirit. But only by those who are consecrated to God as like the disciples of Christ. Not the false prophets or teachers, but to receive the fire baptism of the Holy Spirit is still available today. You can't claim God's word to be true in some things, but not in all things. Either God is the same yesterday, today and forevermore to those who believe or He's not.
No where in scripture are we told that these things are no longer in operation through the power of the Holy Spirit upon being baptized with His fire. Even Jesus speaks of this... being filled with the Holy Spirit and being baptized are not the same.... The gifts of the Holy Spirit are still being given by the same Spirit of God, But to those who have faith to believe and are sold out in obedience to God's word to live or died for the truth of His word.
Jesus said wait for the promise of the Father to receive power through the Holy Spirit. The problem as I see it, no one is willing to wait upon the Lord for this promised power, because they are too busy in their own power, and have no spiritual power from God Himself in the person of the Holy Spirit. No one prays or spend time fasting as we are told to do to receive from God those things, the spiritual blessings which are the gifts of the Spirit, He has for us. So I totally disagree with you and Walter...
In other words, what you are saying is that God is no longer giving out spiritual blessings which are the gifts of the Spirit for the works of the ministry. Please tell me where in scripture you find even an indication that this is the case? I believe every word from Genesis to Revelation of God's word, and there is no where you can find otherwise. Just listen to what you're saying, you're speaking in unbelief, that 's why there is no Holy Ghost power, because of unbelief.
The disciples had so much power because they BELIEVED what Jesus told them, and devoted all their time and efforts to the things of God in obedience, and God rewarded them with His power has He promised. So if what you and Walter say is true, then God is a liar, and forgot to tell us in His word that Only in the first century church will I pourout my Spirit so that you may receive the gifts. You mean that the gift of knowledge, wisdom and faith, discernment, and healing, and speaking in many different languages without going to school to learn them, and the interpretaion of these langauges does not happen today? Sorry, but That's not true...
God is still working miracles and there are people who have the gift of spiritual wisdom, and knowledge and understanding into things that they know not, and mcuh spiritual insight in God's word, who have not gone to school to learn, but from their own studying and God leading them into all knowledge of His word. I don't believe in the foolishness that we see on television with the phony televangelist, false prophets or prophetess, etc. But I've met some very gifted spiritual people who are devoting themselves totally to God, completely sold out, and God is empowering them with spiritual gifts. I don't think these gifts are in their fullness and will not be until the coming of the day of the Lord, to be in limited use today, and used in the fullness there of during such time when Jesus returns. I don't believe there are any apostles in operation, but I do believe that there are those God has chosen to hear His voice clearly and He has them in training for the day, but what they speak will be about the Lord and His coming and not their own.
Plus, upon reading what Walter states, is not with correct understanding as to what happen in the book of Acts, and is in error as to what took place in the book of Acts 8. Some of those things he stated, do not line up with what the Bible states, if you read the story... Please Show me scripture to back your claims that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer in operation today.
That is my point, they are not being preformed in their fullness. Just as you said. Do I believe they will be? yes, I do. And, I believe it will happen BEFORE Jesus comes back. I think there will be 144,000 people doing these things.
The Bible also tells us that, because of their unbelief, Jesus could not work many miracles among His own people... this is why miracles and healings are not taking place today in the church among Christians, unbelief. Many think that is was for the first century church, but there is no scripture to back this claim up any place in God's word.
Ok, Walter and Leon, let's look at Roman chapter 1: verse 10-11, which Walter uses as his proof that the apostles gave out gifts, but the word of God says the supernatural gifts are given out by the Holy Spirit in I Corinthians chapters 12 & 14, the apstles had the power to lay hands on people to empower them with the Holy Spirit. but not to impart the gifts.
In Romans chapter 1:verses 10-12 Paul is speaking about the spiritual gift (blessing) of the faith he shares with the Roman brothers. Not spitural gifts to work miracles.
Verse 10-12. Speaking about his prayers to God: Making request, if by any (some) means now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you. For I long to see you, so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift ( he does not say spiritual gifts), so that you may be established... (now he explains what he's talking about) That is, that I may be encouraged or comforted together with you by the mutual FAITH both of you and me. Paul here is speaking about sharing his faith with the Romans so that not only will this comfort and encourage him, but it will also encourage and lift them up.
