Author Thread: 1 John 5:16, 17
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1 John 5:16, 17
Posted : 17 Feb, 2009 05:16 PM

What is the difference in sin leading to death, and sin not leading to death? Why? Include scripture if you can.



Blessings,

Leon

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1 John 5:16, 17
Posted : 18 Feb, 2009 10:01 AM

Hi Brother Leon,



Well let's quote the whole scripture.



1John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. NKJV



Here is another elluding to the same thing in my opinion.



James 5:19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,

20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. NKJV



I believe both of these scriptures are dealing with the issue of a true Christian who is wondering away from "the truth", meaning from the Gospel, from Christ, and if we get them to "turn back", verse 20 indicates that in doing so we have saved a soul from death. I believe the "sin unto death" is Apostasy. Apostasy is a sin that only a true Christian can commit. The nature of Apostasy requires that one be a true believer first and then turn away and abandon Christ. So how does this occur? How can a Christian fall back into a state of UNbelief?



Heb 3:12-14

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

(KJV)



Notice that these verses are addressed to the "brethren." And, notice that he is warning about "departing from God." One must be with God in order to depart from God. This is exactly what apostasy is. Yet, notice that there is one way Christians can depart from God. UNBELIEF! This is the opposite of "faith." But, this passage reveals much more. It clearly tells us HOW this can happen to a believer. Verse 13 warns of a "hardening" that can occur through the deceitfulness of sin. Hardening is a process, it does not occur overnight. Unchecked sin causes hardening of the heart. A hard heart leads to UNBELIEF. And, unbelief leads to departing from God. Then comes the final conditional assurance. We will be made partakers with Christ IF we hold our initial confidence [or faith] until the end.



Blessings!

In Christ,

Walter

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1 John 5:16, 17
Posted : 18 Feb, 2009 10:34 AM

That was very good Walter, I personally believe along the same lines. There are 4 opinions of this scripture that I have found. I will let others post their opinion before I post some of the others.



Blessings,

Leon

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1 John 5:16, 17
Posted : 18 Feb, 2009 09:33 PM

I am just crazzzy! I wrote a post and just as I was about to post it. It went off line...:devil:



So I will just say that I agree with what Walter and you Leon have said. And add this...



John is speaking about praying for those who are christian who commit those sins we all struggle with daily. The little lies and stealing paper from the office, and the such. We who see these things happening are to pray that God will change that person and give him/her life. Because we are not walking under the influenece of the Holy Spirit who give us life when we do such things. Not that we reject God in unbelief or turn in rebellion but we still struggle with our flesh. And we all are gulity of doing these sins that we thing nothing of. We are to be debtors to the Spirit and not to our own flesh Romasn chapter 8.



John continue to tells us that there are sins that lead to death, whether emotionally, mentally, spiritually, or physically. Sins of totally rejecting God. Paul tell also tells us that ALL sin sperates us from God and the Penaty of sin is death, both spiritually and physically. Romans chapter 6.



The writer of Hebrews tells us in chapter 6, that if a believer turns (falls away) from following Christ after he/she has tasted the goodness of Christ there is no more room for repentance and no need for any one to pray for this person, it will up to God whether or not He will even forgive this person. This is a sin UNTO (that leads) to death.



In Mark, Jesus tells us that if anyone blasphemes the Holy Spirit, this sin will not be forgiven. This too is a sin unto death. Mark chapter 3.



We are told Thou shall not kill. If a person commits suicide, this is a sin unto death because there is no repentance if the person is dead. And no one will enter the kingdom of God, unrepentant.



I didn't get all my points but this is about what my other post I lost said...:peace:



ella

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1 John 5:16, 17
Posted : 19 Feb, 2009 10:46 AM

I am going to post one of the differing opinions that i found, and see what everyone thinks of it.



If a brother sins and God chastises him, we may petition for that brother, and life shall be restored him. Chastisement tends to the death of the body (compare Job 33, 34; James 5:14, 16); we pray for the offender and he is healed. Otherwise the sickness takes its course. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is such sin as is unto death. This does not seem to me to be some particular sin, but all sin which has such a character that, instead of awakening christian charity, it awakens christian indignation. Thus Ananias and Sapphira committed a sin unto death. It was a lie, but a lie under such circumstances that it excited horror rather than compassion. We can easily understand this in other cases.



What do you think of this?

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1 John 5:16, 17
Posted : 19 Feb, 2009 11:09 AM

The sin that was committed by Ananias and Sapphira, as Peter states in Acts chapter 5, was toward the Holy Spirit of God. It was the Holy Spirit of God working in Peter to ask the question, not Peter on his own accord. This goes to what I stated, offending the Holy Spirit is an unforgiveable sin. God makes that very clear, and prayer would not have changed the outcome for them, nor will it change the outcome for us if we blaspheme (which also means make Him unworthy, or down Him or lie) against the Holy Spirit, which, this is what these two did. Peter never ask them to give anything, so as Peter states, they really had no reason to lie about how much they had made from selling the land, or who much the would give. They should have given what they had planned and said nothing. It was they Holy Spirit speaking through Peter, to whom they lied to.



Now I can hopefully, finish what I had written last night on this. Only in certain circumstance where in a person has not commited a sin that leads to death, can we pray and ask or plead God's mercy and grace. To reject God, hardening of one heart, or starting out in the faith and then change to a faith that does not belive in the virgin birth of Christ, as some do, is a sin, and God says only He will judge whether or not He will see fit to have mercy, because this person has crucified Christ under their feet. Jesus died only once, but when we disown Him, we hang Him on the cross all over again. This is SIN!



Yes, we are to pary always for each other, and this is also why we are told to rebuke and reprove harshly other christian when we see them in sin. But for some reason we soft shoe sin, and responding face to face with other when we see and know they are in sin. Paul tells us in I Corinthians that we saints will judge the sinners in the last days of Christ, and how can we judge the sins of those who do not know Christ, yet we refuse to judge thsoe who say they are Christian and are commiting the same sins who are in the church...



I'll stop for now, cuz, I can go on and on like the everready battery...:yay:

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1 John 5:16, 17
Posted : 19 Feb, 2009 11:48 AM

The chastening of the Lord for disobedience, we can only pray that God will have mercy and grace on us and our brother or sister. But just as the word says, its a bad thing to fall into the hands of the Lord....oooouch!lawdy that hurts! and wearing two pair pants or double clothing ain't gonna help when God beats us into righteousness :yay: like we thought when we were kids and our parents beat our butts...:ROFL:



The life that is restored to this person AFTER chastening is that the person is brought to repentance and anawarenee that the Holy Spirit lives in us and we are to follow the rules of Christ. Jesus is life throught the Holy Spirit, and repentance of our sins brings life, give life and is our life in Christ. Hebrews chapter 12, let us know that if we keep sinning, willfully, we are going to feel the hand of God on our bacside. We know that God gives us opportunities for escape, and sometimes we will not listen or obey and still coninue in our sins. God will and has no choice but to punsih us, and Paul warns us against being diobedient to God becasue He is going to tear our butts up! :laugh:



Only if and when we repent and TURN away from our sins will we not suffer punishment, BUT, we will suffer the consequences of our sins as a reminded not to sin anymore, and to kee away from sin, punishment at the hands of God is as when we disobeyed our parents as the writer points out in Hebrews chapter 12.. God disciplines us for our own good and this proves that we are His children... as in baby this is going to hurt me more than it will you... but I'm going to tear you backside up...:yay::ROFL::excited::ROFL:

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1 John 5:16, 17
Posted : 19 Feb, 2009 11:49 AM

I posted this one because it is the only one that says the sin unto death means the physical death of the body. All others that I read, say John is talking about spiritual death. When you read before and after, you see that the context does seem to be Spiritual, and not physical. But that has always been my opinion, so I tend to lean that way.



I think it is McGee, who takes this a step farther and says that any sin we catch before they die, we can pray about and they will be forgiven. If there are any McGee students out there, please correct me if I am wrong. I am going from memory, and I have been known to really be off when I do that.



Any thoughts?



Blessings,

Leon

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1 John 5:16, 17
Posted : 19 Feb, 2009 12:20 PM

Yeah, I use to listen to Mcgee before he died yrs. back. He's old school, but there were somethings I disagreed with that he has said. I only go by what the word says about what God will forgive and the punishment He give for not obeying.



The word says, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is UNFORGIVEABLE, will not be forgiven says Jesus, and I think it means just that!... no matter how you pray. The word say that any one that if a person falls away from the turh of the gspel and the doctrine of Jesus Christ, who once confessed Jesus, and they trun to another gospel, no matter how you pray for that person it will be impossible to restore that person again or bring them back to repentance, seeing that they have crucified for themsleves, Christ again on the cross and put Him to shame. In otherwords made God a liar. Hebrews chapter 6.



All sins as you say are of unrighteousness, but there are those that God will have mercy and grace toward, but ALL sin leads to death as I stated whether spiritually, physically, emotionally or mentally. Sin separates us from God in our relationship. Not that it separates us from His love, this is why He punishes us for our sins, but it separates us from a closeness with Him. The separatio of His love is there through Jesus Christ, and God's desires that no one should persih, so He redeem us (give us life) when and only when we repent of our sins.



As Paul points out sins that are not unto (lead to death), or those sins we struggle with in our daily walk trying to live holy as Christ has called us to do. Adultery should not be a struggle, becasue we know the truth about it. This sin leads to death spiriaully, physically (in many ways), it leads to death emotionally, and mentally.



Look at the list Paul give us (wait let me get me Bible)... ok, Sins of the flesh according to God, not man, but what God says are sins:

Now the works (sins) of the flesh manifest these: Adultery, fronaication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, wtchcraft, hatred, variance(discord or strife), emulations(jealousy) wrath, strife, seditions, heresises, envying, murder(physically or with words against someone is also know as murder, becasue negative words kills the spirit emotionally, spiritually, and mentally of another person), drunkenness, revelings. These are sins God say those who commit will not inherit His kingdom, IF there is no repentance.



How many people do you know who are in these sins and have no life in themselves? Think back when we were in some of these same sins, and thought we had it going on, but in reality, we were without life and light... lived in darkness and under the influence of the life the devil dictated to us... But whne Jesus came with His light and breathed His breath of life and set up resident inside of us, He rasied us out of the darkness and we were resurrected back to a new life in Christ, no longer in sin. Dead to sin, alive in Christ. But before we were dead to Christ and alive in our sins.



But look at these sins. Many are forgiveable, and again they all lead to death spiritually, emotionally, mentally, and physically. Why becasue they are all aginst the will of God and bring separation from God.



So the death John and paul speak about heas a fourfold meaning.

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1 John 5:16, 17
Posted : 19 Feb, 2009 12:30 PM

GEEEZZZZ! I will be so glad when CDFF administration honor our many reqests for edit, spell check, quote, and delete buttons on the forum. I sure hate to allow this to cause me to sin. :excited::yay:... so pray for me that I don't start cussing about not being able to edit my mistakes properly on this board before posting... :prayingm::prayingf::yay::ROFL:... watch over me angels:angel::purpleangel: LOL!

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1 John 5:16, 17
Posted : 24 Feb, 2009 08:46 PM

"The word says, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is UNFORGIVEABLE, will not be forgiven says Jesus, and I think it means just that!... no matter how you pray. The word say that any one that if a person falls away from the turh of the gspel and the doctrine of Jesus Christ, who once confessed Jesus, and they trun to another gospel, no matter how you pray for that person it will be impossible to restore that person again or bring them back to repentance, seeing that they have crucified for themsleves, Christ again on the cross and put Him to shame. In otherwords made God a liar. Hebrews chapter 6."



i have to disagree... there are many who have fallen away from the truth and the doctrine of Jesus Christ and have fallin for other another false belief... i am one.. when i was younger about 18 i accepted Jesus as my savior, went to church quite a bit, and i believed myself a christian... but as i got older i fell away from his truths and doctrine, and i fell into the false belief, that i could party and act how ever i liked and do what i want, and still be considered a christian... i basicly rejected jesus and i didnt even know it, but because God never stopped loving me, and i was sealed in him, i was slowly convicted over time... i felt ashamed...



i fell in and out of Gods grace like at least 30 times... eveytime i did, i thought that God didnt love me. according to the arminian view, God loved me, he loved me not, he loved me, he loved me not, he loved me, he loved me not. i was saved, i was saved not, i was saved, i was saved not, and finally i was saved. that dont make sense... who saved me? Jesus? or myself... according to the arminian view it was myself. it was i that accepted god, thus saving myself... and it was i that jumped out of Gods hand, thus damning myself... and on and on and on. that dont make sense at all... God always loved me, and everytime i fell out, it was him that brought me back... in the back of my mind i had this nudge that turned into a push...



also i dont believe that commiting suicide is a damnable sin... people say this because they believe that if you commit suicide, you cant ask for Gods forgiveness, thus your damned to hell. well, then if thats the case you better make sure you havent forgotten to pray for any sins before you die, and just hope you dont sin 5 seconds before you die... do you ask for forgiveness right after you sin? you might want to start now if you havnt... dont put off untill, bed time to pray for any sins you have commited. you might not make it untill then...



you see, Jesus died for ALL of the sins, commited in the past, present and the future... your sins have already been forgiven... do you not think that Jesus is capable for forgiving a sin untill its actually commited... if God is all knowing, then he definitly can forgive you of a sin before you even commit it... stop bringing god down to our supposed human understanding of things... so if your a christian, and you commit suicide (which there shouldnt be any reason), God has already forgiven you of that sin... again, this is not an excuse to commit suicide... i thought of only one example in which i would commit suicide... i have heard how soldiers will carry a pill, incase they get captured, they will take it to kill himself, so he avoids torture, which can very well convince him to give away information which would cause harm to his fellow soldiers, not to mention they would most likely kill him after they got all the information out of him.



i also know someone who commited suicide because of the extreme emount of pain he was dealing with, and he was dieing anyways... but he hurried the process... he wasnt a christian, but i can see how a christian can sin in that sense.



also i want to see a list of these unforgivable sins, and how many times you have to commit them, for it to be considered a "change of lifestyle"



lets see the list of forgivable sins and the unforgivable sins... though jesus only talks of one...

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