He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ourx, but also the sins of the whole world. John 2:2
Posted : 9 Dec, 2011 12:16 AM
There are many reasons why I don�t believe the doctrine of selective salvation is Biblical. To help you obtain a quick overall understanding of the problems with this doctrine, I have created this summary for you. Once you have gone through the list, you can read the remaining 60 plus chapters or you can go to the specific chapter that has captured your interest.
As you read through the list, you will find some of the problems with this doctrine are simple and obvious. Other problems, however, are more complex and the Biblical contradictions are less obvious. Although many Christians don�t do it, we need to think through each doctrine to its obvious conclusion. It is important to see the hidden implications of each doctrine and then see how they affect other doctrines.
As we study the doctrine of selective salvation, we will find that its implications contradict a large number of other doctrines. Hopefully, this section will help you think about some things you have never considered before. Listed below are some of the contradictions I have found with selective salvation.
It is inconsistent with the Bible
There are over a hundred verses that say salvation is offered to everyone. For example, 1 John 2:2 says, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world."
The Bible says God desires the salvation of those who are perishing. For example, 2 Peter 3:9 says, "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
The Bible says people are going to Hell against God�s will. For example, 1 Corinthians 15:34 says, "For there are some who are ignorant of God--I say this to your shame."
The Bible says people are perishing because no one has brought them the message. Hosea 4:6 says, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."
� Selective Salvationists say God "hates" all of the non-elect. Yet, when the rich young ruler turned his back on Jesus, the Bible said Jesus "loved" him.
Selective Salvationists say before God created the universe, He selected certain people to go to Heaven and the rest go to Hell. Yet, the Bible says Hell was created for the fallen angels, not us (Matthew 25:41).
Selective Salvationists say the core of this doctrine is the sovereignty of God and His complete control over everything. He dictates every action that takes place. They say God would not be in complete control if man had a choice in his destiny. There are three problems with this view:
There are hundred of verses in the Bible that clearly show God changing His mind and altering His plans because of our actions or inactions.
There are many evil and sinful things going on in the world. Do we really want to say God forcibly made people commit these heinous acts?
We cannot be held accountable for our sins if we have no say or choice in any of our actions. It would be unjust to send a person to Hell for something he did not choose to do.
Selective Salvationists say God preplanned people�s lives (forced them to become Christians and perform great services for Him). If this were true, you would think He would have planned lives that would consistently glorify Him. Instead, we find many of His leaders (Saul, David, Samson, Solomon, etc) made some major blunders and had their years of service cut short.
There are dozens of verses where God commands the world to seek Him. If some are incapable of seeking God, why did He make that command? For example, Hebrews 11:6 says, "He rewards those who earnestly seek him."
God said to the whole Nation of Israel, "Seek me and live" (Amos 5:4). God was offering his plan of salvation to the whole Nation of Israel. Yet the Bible clearly says not all of the Israelites became believers. This means many of the people God wanted to go to Heaven ended up going to Hell.
The Bible says we can resist God. For example, Matthew 23:37 says, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." This means some people were resisting God�s call to salvation. It also means some people went to Hell against His desire.
There are dozens of verses where God commands the world to repent. If some people are incapable of repenting, why did He make that command? For example, Acts 17:30 says, "He [God] commands all people everywhere to repent."
There are dozens of verses that talk about how we can be easily led astray from God and salvation. This shows our eternal destinies have not been pre-planned.
The Bible says our surroundings can greatly influence our eternal destiny. For example, Matthew 19:24 says, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to Heaven"
Why did Jesus have to suffer such a terrible spiritual damnation? If there is no choice in our spiritual destiny, then our spiritual "test" (and subsequent failures) could easily have been bypassed. There was no need for us to be lost and ultimately redeemed. There was no need for Jesus to suffer such a brutal, humiliating, and despicable punishment.
It is inconsistent with observable facts
If selective salvation were true, you would expect an even distribution of Christians all over the world. In contrast to this, we find areas with very high concentrations of Christians and other areas with very low concentrations of Christians.
If selective salvation were true, exposure to the gospel should not have any impact on how many people become Christians in a given area. Yet, areas with a strong gospel witness have a high number of believers and areas with little or no gospel witness have few or no new Christians.
If selective salvation were true, parental influence should not increase or decrease a child�s chance of becoming a Christian. However, we find children raised in Christian homes are much more likely to become Christians than children who are raised in atheistic homes. In fact, children who are raised by strong, mature Christians are much more likely to become Christians than children raised by weak and spiritually immature Christians.
The Bible has over a hundred verses that clearly say salvation is offered to "everyone," "whosoever," and the whole "world." Yet, Selective Salvationists say salvation is only offered to the select few. To get around these verses, Selective Salvationists say these verses are only talking about the elect. In other words, verses that say "� salvation is offered to everyone" should actually be read as "� salvation is offered to everyone of the elect." To force this type of interpretation on hundreds of verses, Selective Salvationists have violated multiple basic rules of Biblical interpretation.
In addition to the above problem, there are many verses where this type of forced conclusion still would not work. For example, 1 John 2:2 says, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world." Using their rules of interpretation, this verse should read: "He is the atoning sacrifice for the elect�s sins, and not only for the elect�s sins, but also for the sins of the elect."
Selective Salvationists say God has chosen certain people over other people. Yet, the Bible says God does not pick one person over another. For example, Acts 10:34 says, "God is no respecter of persons."
Let�s say, for the sake of argument, salvation is open to everyone in the world. What would God say differently in the Bible (from what He has already said) that would show salvation is open to everyone in the world? The Bible already has over 100 verses saying salvation is offered to everyone.
God "sought a man after His own heart" (1 Samuel 13:14). If selective salvation is true God already knows the mindset of each person (He�s the one who preprogrammed each person�s life). If He already knows each person�s mindset, why was He searching for people with a particular mindset?
David was "a man after God�s own heart" (Acts 13:22). If God created the elect�s heart and mindset, wouldn�t all of the elect be people after God�s own heart?
Joshua said, "Choose you this day who you shall serve. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord" (Joshua 24:15). If God already chose our destiny for us, why was it so important for Joshua to make this admonition?
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ourx, but also the sins of the whole world. John 2:2
Posted : 9 Dec, 2011 12:07 PM
1. God purposed to redeem a certain people and not others
1Ch 17:20-21 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. And what one nation in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people, whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt?
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
1Pe 2:8-9 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
[see �God elects individuals to salvation�/God elects individuals to condemnation�]
A) It is for these in particular that Christ gave his life
Is 53:10-11 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Joh 6:35-40 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 10:3-4 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice....Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep....Joh 10:14-15 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; [we are commanded to love our wives in the same way that Christ loved the church and gave himself for it; therefore, if Christ loved and gave himself for all people in the same way, we are commanded to love all women in the same way that we love our wives]
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
B) It is for these in particular that Christ intercedes
Joh 17:1-2 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:6-12 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Joh 17:20-21 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
( You wish to say that Jesus died for everyone, but the above verses say that Jesus did even PRAY for them, but that he prayed only for those that would believe in Him. You really think Jesus died for people He would not even pray for????)
Joh 17:24-26 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
C) The people for whom Christ intercedes are the same as the people for whom he offered himself up as a sacrifice
Heb 7:24-27 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. [note context, in which entering into the holy place is explicitly for the purpose of intercession]
Heb 9:24-28 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ourx, but also the sins of the whole world. John 2:2
Posted : 9 Dec, 2011 01:46 PM
Please explain how many are called and few are chosen is one of your proof texts as tey call it? How does that even fit in? If Grace is irresisitable then how is someone caleed but does not become chosen? and if God sets out to save someone and that person is definatly saved then how come its not many are called and many are chosen? That specific scripture blows a hole in your theology becasue yall are the ones that said God purposed a certain number of peole for salvation and the rest are condemed so he doesnt fool with them and he doesnt call them, and you said yourself James if God calls you then he will make you to endure to the end!
Many are called few are chosen shows a difference between the number that are called and the number that actualy make it!
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ourx, but also the sins of the whole world. John 2:2
Posted : 9 Dec, 2011 07:06 PM
Elisha said:
Please explain how many are called and few are chosen is one of your proof texts as tey call it? How does that even fit in?
James replies:
Many receive the outward call of the gospel.
A preacher preaches to a crowd of people.
Some of those receive an inward call, which is the Holy Spirit who makes them come alive spiritually and THEY are chosen.
Notice what happened here:
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Who believed? those that were ordained (chosen) for eternal life.
HOW MANY? "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
Many ARE called, because of Christian radio, street preachers, Christians talking about Jesus to others, etc.
And few are chosen.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Elisha said;
If Grace is irresisitable then how is someone called but does not become chosen?
James replies:
The gospel is a command to repent and believe. Many, many people hear about Jesus.
Elisha said;
and if God sets out to save someone
James replies:
God HAS chosen to save more people than anyone can count.
When God loves someone, He really loves them and makes it certain that are saved.
Elisha said:
and that person is definatly saved then how come its not many are called and many are chosen? That specific scripture blows a hole in your theology becasue yall are the ones that said God purposed a certain number of peole for salvation and the rest are condemed so he doesnt fool with them and he doesnt call them, and you said yourself James if God calls you then he will make you to endure to the end!
James replies:
Yes God CAUSES His people to persevere to the end.
Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Elisha said:
Many are called few are chosen shows a difference between the number that are called and the number that actualy make it!
James replies:
That is right. Many people hear about Jesus, and many of them reject it. But, we can be confident that God DOES SAVE some of them. And lets remember that "some" is more than any of us can count.
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ourx, but also the sins of the whole world. John 2:2
Posted : 9 Dec, 2011 08:27 PM
I really think its Gods drawing that is being referd to not the call of a man! amd what about the scripture where Jesus said he will draw ALL men unro himself? I know you have an answer so dont think I am trying to discredit you I have enough saence to know you have answers for all the scripture but I just want to know what your answer is for my own curiosity! And James I in no way think that the things that we discuss about our differences means one of us is not saved , knowing these things is not a prerequisit of being saved!We can still be brother and sister I think
