I want to have a discussion on freewill. How come Jonah didn't have a choice on going to Ninevah to preach? Some might say that it was his destiny to go and preach. Then my question is: did He have a free will? This question is just to start a discussion.
Good question. I've always found free will to be a very interesting topic. I think the story of Jonah is meant, at least partially, to show that it is best not to question God's motives--that if we obey Him from the start, we will be better off. God's will was for Jonah to preach in Ninevah, and His will cannot be overcome. Jonah had free will in some sense, because he chose to disobey God and run away, among other things. Ultimately though, I don't think he had free will. If God wanted him to preach in Ninevah, there's really nothing he could do to avoid it.
A better example would be Pharaoh. He was ready to let the Israelites go before God hardened his heart. Also there is Judas, do you think he had a choice? Someone had to turn Jesus over for the prophesy to be fulfilled. The Bible is full of examples of God's will being done regardless of man's will.
It is nice to think we have free will, but we don't have it if God wants us to do something.
Thank you for your post. I would like to get this discussion rolling a little more. Judas was of course, we could say, predestined for perdition. However, Judas made conscious decisions on who He wanted to follow. He made himself available for the enemy. We clearly know that he stole money that was for the poor. Here we have God chose someone to be a betrayer. I'm a firm believer that it could have been any of the apostles to betray Jesus. It's just that Judas was not wholeheartedly serving our Lord. It is my thought.
It is a tough subject for me, that is why I asked this question. In the word it also states on numerous occasions, "I will cause..." meaning that we have no say in it. So there are both ways of looking at it. i just didn't come to any firm conclusions. One more thing, He put the tree of knowledge in the garden, giving humankind a choice!?
Ah, now you have hit on a very interesting topic, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Now why would a Holy God put a tree in the garden, tell us not to eat the fruit, and punish us when we did? Why not just leave it out? Why this particular tree? Why not just tell us not to do jumping jacks as a test, if that was what it was? It is confusing when you really look at it.
Man didn't know evil, the Bible tells us that sin (evil) entered into the world because of the fall. How, without evil, could we know good? If there is no darkness, we wouldn't know light. It wouldn't be light, it would just be. One of those givens, that we take for granted.
So, man had to fall, to realize what God had given us. Now is where free will enters in, and we do have it, by the way. We choose God, or the world. Good, or evil. We now know both, so we are able to choose which we want. Now God has a purpose for each and every one of us, and you will do what He wants, but we decide freely to come to Him or not.
You seem to have contradicted yourself. In your first comment you said we obviously don't have a will, if it is contrary to God's will; now in your previous reply, contingent upon my tree of knowledge statement, you said that we have a freewill, or that is when it starts to play some role. I'm a little confused. Which one is it? For your answers seem ambiguous--just like my understanding of the subject.
Please, do not be offended of my statement. I really want to clarify this subject.
There are statements by God saying: "You didn't choose me, but I shose you, from your mothers womb". No choice in that one for us, we like it or not, He chose us--for which praise His Holy Name. I don't know, I'm rambling; if anyone has a concrete answer please blog me.
I am sorry to have confused you, this is a very confusing subject. What I am giving you is my belief, and you can accept it or not, as the Spirit leads you.
God calls us to salvation, it is His choice. Then, we can either accept, or reject that calling, or salvation.
God also has a purpose for everyone. I like to use the example of the man that tied the donkey to the post. When Jesus sent His disciples to get the donkey that He was to ride into Jerusalem, it was right where it was supposed to be. I believe that if Jesus was a day early, the donkey would have been a day early also. The whole reason for this man being born, was to tie that donkey to that rail for Jesus. He had no choice in the matter, Jesus had to ride into town on a donkey's colt. This is an example of when we don't have a choice. That man may have had no idea why he wanted to tie that donkey there, but he did it. Same thing with you and I, we may have no idea what God wants us to do, but we will do it.
Very good example. I guess I was looking for a deep theological explanation. lol...my quest will continue. I know one thing. When I was in rebellion to God, I had no desire to come to Him. he caused circumstances in my life to follow Him.
You seem to have experienced something few people experience. I was also pulled back to God, almost against my will. I don't talk about it, because it is one of those subjects that cause too much strife.
All I can tell you my friend, is that God has plans for you. Seek Him, and He will reveal them to you, but it could take a while. It took Him 2 years to show me.
First let me apologize for the length of this post but i wanted to hit on several passages to help emphasize the point about Free Will.
I do not believe God caused circumstances in your life to cause you to follow Him. I believe he caused circumstances in your life to get your attention and the choice to follow Him was entirely up to you.
This Free Will discussion is a very important one as it establishes a significant difference between the False teachings of Calvinism and the proper teachings of Arminian theology. This also goes right to the Character of God.
If man has no Free Will then ultimately man is not responsible for his sins as man does not have the capacity to sin on his own. Therefore this leads to the conclusion that if man has no free will then it is God who is causing man to sin making God the biggest sinner of all and we know that is not possible. Understanding the balance between God's "sovereign will" AND man's Free Will is crucial. So we have to ask a question. "Is God's Will always accomplished?" If God wills something does that mean it is something that will occur? Not necessarily.
2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. NKJV
We see in this verse that God is NOT willing that anyone should perish and that it is His will that all should come to repentance. We know that this will not happen but yet it is God's will. So what is God's will or more properly what does the phrase "God's Will" mean. "God's will" means His "Desire". He desires that no one perishes and He desires that everyone repents which is dealing with Salvation. Now since God's will is not always accomplished does this means that God is not sovereign? Not at all. God is God and if God chooses to limit His sovereign will to allow man Free Will is that not His prerogative to do so?
Let's look at Cain and how God gave him a choice to repent and offer a better gift.
Gen 4:6-7
6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. KJV
God knowing that Cain would not repent, still offered Cain a means to be reconciled with God by offering the right sacrifice. Was God taunting Cain or was God sincerely wanting Cain to repent? Obviously God wanted Cain to repent and get it right. Cain had a choice and he chose incorrectly.
Let's examine what Jesus said to His very own12 Disciples.
John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide[continue] in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide[continue] in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides [continues] in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 IF...anyone does not abide [continue] in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 IF... you abide[continue] in Me, and My words abide[continue] in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.NKJV
Please notice the words "IF" and also where I bracketed the word [continue] next to "abide". It's the same word and meaning but continue gives a better rendering. These words demonstrate that we have Free Will to continue "IN Christ" or not to and also notice the consequences in verse 6 "IF" a person does not [continue] in Christ. They are withered, gathered together and burned. You cannot re-graph a branch after this process. This is representative of eternal damnation in Hell.
Let's look at what Paul wrote.
1Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved, "IF" ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Notice how Paul clearly stated that we are saved...."IF" we keep in memory what he preached to us. What did he preach? The Gospel of course.
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (KJV)
Let's examine some key points here.
1) This passage is clearly addressed to the "Brethern". These are Christians. Jewish Christians but Christians nevertheless.
2) The warning is concerning Christians possibly developing an evil heart of "UNBELIEF" and if so, their departing from the living God. You cannot depart from God unless you are with God to begin with. How does this occur?
3)" lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin". Here we see that staying in a sinful lifestyle can harden a Christian's heart. That is what sin does. It hardens a person's heart to a point that they can fall back to a state of UNbelief and depart from God. This is what Apostasy is. A total rejection of Christ BY a Christian believer. Hardening is something that does not occur over night. It takes time but for each individual that time will vary.
4) 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Here is the condition placed upon our salvation. We are made partakers of Christ, ..."IF" we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. What does that mean? It means that as long as we continue to believe in Christ, then we will remain a partaker of Christ.
I hope this helps to establish a firm foundation that God gives us free will to choose.
