Thread: From Original Sin, to Questions for a Roman Catholic.......
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From Original Sin, to Questions for a Roman Catholic.......
Posted : 14 Aug, 2011 06:50 PM
Arch said:
My question is
Why did The Church BELIEVE in ORIGINAL SIN from
The VERY BEGINNING?
James replies:
Because Paul SAID SO! Rome is not wrong on every single issue.
I think Paul made it as clear as possible in Romans chapter 5.
"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned� for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come."
18Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men,
How you can read that and NOT believe in Original Sin???
Adam and Eve were chosen to REPRESENT the human race, and they did, and that means that YOU AND I would have done the exact same thing.
You reject what Paul TEACHES in Romans 5 about original sin?
Then answer me this:
HOW COME the punishments given to Adam and Eve, are ALSO given to EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO EVER LIVED????
And you can't complain too loudly about imputed sin, because they only way we can be saved is by imputed righteousness of Jesus!
Arch said:
If Christ gave His Bride The Complete Truth...all She needed to Know Concerning Faith and Morals...
..The Full Deposit of FAIYH
-- How could She have been Wrong concerning Original Sin?
I'll answer that
"She was NOT!"
James replies:
First off, Archimedes, "she", the church INCLUDES all Christians from all time, NOT just the early church.
Secondly, the early church got some things wrong. They did NOT have the benefit of hundreds and hundreds of years of reflection upon reflection and insight upon insight.
SOME of the early church fathers believed some pretty weird things.
I am Reformed, and I take my cues from the Reformers, and What I can do is SHOW that what I believe was believed by Christians from the beginning all the way up to today, and of course using Scripture every step of the way.
Arch said:
She only Repeats what Christ Told Her (Oral Revelation) and what She Knows to be True -- which is...Written (Scripture) and Oral (Sacred Traditiuon). It is these Revelations from God that is The Full Deposit of Faith that is
James replies:
I agree, except there are no traditions that are "sacred".
The Roman Catholic Idea of putting church traditions before Scripture is EXACTLY why Rome became the apostate body that it is today.
Arch said:
Original Sin Exists.
James replies:
Yes, we agree on this.
Arch said:
That is why Baptism is Essential and Necessary to
Regenerate (Remove) Original Sin.
James replies:
No. Baptism is a symbolic act showing what God has ALREADY DONE in the life of the believer.
Dunking people in water does NOT make them come alive spiritually. The Holy Spirit does this.
Arch said:
How can some of you think that you Know Better than those that Walked with CHRIST?
James replies:
No one is saying that. The Apostles left us the New Testament and we are saying what the Reformers said to the Pope:
Faith alone, Scripture alone.
Since you are asking Questions, I will ask some of you......
How can you read Scripture and THEN enter a Catholic church?
Does bowing down to statues and worshiping Mary and pretending that you can have salvation by attending ceremonies, not make you sick when you KNOW the Bible says that all of those things are lies and sin?
When Jesus says simply to his disciples to eat the bread and drink the wine and remember Him that way, and Rome has turned that into a bizarre ceremony where the Christian is not allowed to even TOUCH the bread, or drink the wine???
How can you be a Catholic, and KNOW that Jesus is NOT on the cross, and that he reigns in heaven, and YET.....the only way Rome shows Jesus is as if He is STILL HANGING THERE???
Have you ever read anything Luther said? Have you ever read how many times different Popes have contradicted one another?
Do you know Rome STILL sells indulgences?
And MOST importantly.....
How can you be a Catholic, and KNOW that Paul TAUGHT and Jesus SAID and the Apostles PREACHED that a man can ONLY be save by faith, and yet, Rome teaches faith plus works???
They literally teach that Jesus is not good enough!!!
From Original Sin, to Questions for a Roman Catholic.......
Posted : 14 Aug, 2011 07:51 PM
God does not sin, but He knows all things, and He KNEW man would sin.
God is not the author of sin, but sin is necessary to accomplish His goals.
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
God is not the author of Sin, PhillipJohn, but He chose Adam and Eve to represent the Human race, and when Adam and Eve sinned, we ALL did, and that is WHY original sin is true.
From Original Sin, to Questions for a Roman Catholic.......
Posted : 14 Aug, 2011 08:51 PM
First let me make sure that it is Clear that I Believe in Original Sin.
Now�I would like to draw your attention to what James wrote.
James replies:
Because Paul SAID SO!
James, The Church Preaches Original Sin�not because Paul Says So, but because it is The Truth that CHRIST Himself Gave to Her!
James�if Christ Himself were to Appear before you and tell you something that cannot be found in Scripture�would you call Him a Liar?
�No�My Lord!�
�That is NOT in Scripture!�
I really wonder if you might just do that.
(James you wrote)
�Secondly, the early church got some things wrong. They did NOT have the benefit of hundreds and hundreds of years of reflection upon reflection and insight upon insight.
SOME of the early church fathers believed some pretty weird things��
Yes, James�the Men in The Church got some things Wrong and yes some of the Men in The Church believed some �weird things�, but
�The Bride of CHRIST� did not �get it wrong�. The Bride of CHRIST has Everything Christ Gave Her and She will continue to HAVE IT until He RETURNS.
I know this is Impossible for you to admit because it would mean that you are preaching a Gospel that has been �reformed�. A Gospel that men have had
��the benefit of hundreds and hundreds of years of reflection upon reflection and insight upon insight.�; which they have used to ALTER The Truth.
No Amount of WordSmith or Cleverness or �sleight of hand� can change the fact that what you preach now is Different than what Christ Taught The Church and what has been Taught by The Church From The Beginning!
(your words James)
�I am Reformed, and I take my cues from the Reformers��
Christ Taught The Apostles.
The Apostles Taught those that they Ordained.
Christ Created a Church�called Her His Bride�Gave Her ALL She needed�All Truths�Commanded Her TO TEACH!
You�James�do not take �your cues� from Christ or The Apostles or The Church�but rather from men�from men�from the Reformers!
You cannot �Change� TRUTH and call it Reformed.
Arch said:
How can some of you think that you Know Better than those that Walked with CHRIST?
James replies:
No one is saying that. The Apostles left us the New Testament and we are saying what the Reformers said to the Pope:
�Well�Shoot�why didn�t you say that in the first place!�
�Now it all makes Sense!�
James�let me give you an Example of what I am saying.
Let�s say that you go back in Time to just 20 years after Paul�s Death and you walk in on Services. You are Appalled at what they are doing and saying! You tell them
�Wait a minute! Where did you get that?�
�That is not in Scripture!�
A young man approaches you and says �Sir�I do not know who you are but I did know Paul The Apostle�he Ordained me�
�it was Paul himself that Taught us to do this�
�It was Paul himself that Taught us all the Truths you have heard here�
�Paul told us to Hold Fast to these Traditions and Guard these Truths�
�Sir�I mean no disrespect�but I do not know you.�
�We will continue with what Paul has Taught us to do�.
Christ PROMISED that Nothing�Nothing would overcome His Church.
You can claim all you want that �the People� are the church and I would agree that The Community of Believers is the church�but Christ Created a Physical Church�Bricks and Mortar Church. The men that run this Church are not perfect�but The Head is � Jesus Christ.
James your accusations are weak and without merit.
(your words)
Does bowing down to statues and worshiping Mary and pretending that you can have salvation by attending ceremonies, not make you sick when you KNOW the Bible says that all of those things are lies and sin?
Yes�some Catholic do go too far and worship Mary�that is wrong. Statues are not real�they are Symbols. When was the last time you got down on your knees to Pray at your church service?
�If you do not EAT of My FLESH and DRINK of My BLOOD�you have no LIFE in you� Yeah�that sounds pretty symbolic to me.
Every time I see Jesus on that Cross I am Reminded of how much He Loves me and of how much He SUFFERED for me. I�ve been to Protestant services that were a spectacle! What a Show! I had to Wonder just who was that all for? It seemed that it was more about the people there than about Christ. The singers thought that they were on American Idol and the Preacher thought he was reenacting some �Oscar� performance.
This �Faith� of ours is not about us�not about what God can give us�not about what we will get �in the end�.
It should be about what we can do for God.
God Knows Us! He knew what we would do with His Plan of Salvation if left on Our Own! If we were allowed to �Edit� it to suit our Understanding�our Needs.
God set a High Standard for us.
Some of us have �lowered� it so we can claim that we�ve �Achieved� it.
In closing�James I would Bet that you have a lot of �works� to show because of your Faith. Anyone that Truly has Faith�will also have Works to Show that Faith is ALIVE! That is all The Catholic Church says and has always Taught. It is just one more thing that is Protested so as to �Distance� oneself from The Catholic Church.
From Original Sin, to Questions for a Roman Catholic.......
Posted : 14 Aug, 2011 09:35 PM
From the Roman Catholic Perspective on Theology everything is always finite, and even then western Christianity has always been finite, since it has Platonism in it, even if they don't recognize it as such. In Eastern Christianity it is a fallen nature within man that that is considered original sin, its no a sin upon the person but an inherited fallen nature, they are sinless at birth but inherited to a fallen nature that keeps them from God. That is the idea of original sin before the 8th century, as when the Huns invaded communication between the East and West was cut, and with the Arian Herasy in both the East and the West, the west had problems with it, and over time under isolation, and under the Reign of King Charlemagne doctrine changed.
