No, and does not matter arch any more than any other justification of man is, man must have a foundation for his unbelief, as long as you accept any tag of man, that is supposed to be christianity you are in error.
The answer allow Jesus to be your lord and not man.
As I posted and you guys discussed on James thread about imputed of righteousness, God imputed ascribe to or reckon the original sin to our account. The imputation of sin occurred originally when the sin oif Adam was charged to the account of every person born. This does not mean that we are responsible for Adam's sin, but God has reackon to us the guilt we deserve becaseu we ate connect to Adam, he is the father of the human race.
Just as God imputed or charge to our account Adam's sin, God alos impute His righteousness to our account when we repent and receive the work Jesus Christ did for us on the cross, and thos gives us the pwoer to overcome sin in our lives.
Adam's original sin, is in our sin nature to sin which is disobedience that was the sin of Adam... Read the whole chpater of Romans 5, and Romans 6, and Romans 7, to get a better spiritual understanding of God's word and how this all works...
January 23, 2006 | by Matt Perman | Topic: Imputed & Original Sin
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There are several lines of biblical evidence for the historic Christian doctrine that we are all born into the world with sinful natures, due to the sin of Adam.
Scripture says that we are born sinners and that we are by nature sinners
Psalm 51:5 states that we all come into the world as sinners: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." Ephesians 2:2 says that all people who are not in Christ are "sons of disobedience." Ephesians 2:3 also establishes this, saying that we are all "by nature children of wrath." If we are all "by nature children of wrath," it can only be because we are all by nature sinners--for God does not direct His wrath towards those who are not guilty. God did not create the human race sinful, but upright. But we fell into sin and became sinful due to the sin of Adam.
Scripture speaks of humans as unrighteous from infancy
There are also verses which declare that we are all unrighteous from the time that we are born. Proverbs 22:15 says "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child." Genesis 8:21 declares, "...the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth." Jonathon Edwards, in his classic work The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin Defended, remarks that on this verse: "The word translated youth, signifies the whole of the former part of the age of man, which commences from the beginning of life. The word in its derivation, has reference to the birth or beginning of existence...so that the word here translated youth, comprehends not only what we in English most commonly call the time of youth, but also childhood and infancy."
Humanity is Often Described in General Terms as Unrighteous
Unrighteousness is often spoken of in Scripture as something belonging to the human race as a whole.This implies that it is the property of our species. In other words, sinfulness is considered a property of human nature after the fall. Thus, it must be concluded that we are all born sinners, since we are all born human and sin is regarded as a property of humanity. In this vein, consider Ephesians 2:1-3:
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Paul is here reminding Christians of what they were like before their conversion to Christ ("you were dead in your trespasses...in which you formerly walked"). Thus, all people, until and unless they are converted, are sinners. Paul goes on to make it absolutely clear that all Christians came from this state ("...we to all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh") and that all non-Christians are still in this state ("...and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.") Thus, Scripture regards all people before they are saved by Christ as sinners and thus deserving of punishment from God. Which is to say that from the inception of our existence, we are sinful.
In Psalm 14:2, 3 we read: "The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one." Here again we see unrighteousness as a property of the human race: "they have all turned aside...there is no one who does good."
Job 15:14 similarly declares that sinfulness is a property of humanity: "What is man, that he should be pure, or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?" Verses 15-16 then speaks of the human race as a whole in shocking terms expressing our general corruption: "Behold, He puts no trust in His holy ones, And the heavens are not pure in His sight; How much less one who is detestable and corrupt, Man, who drinks iniquity like water!"
Jeremiah 17:9 says that "the heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it." This seems to assume original sin--wickedness is a property of the human heart. Ecclesiastes 9:3 declares a similar truth: "...the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil, and insanity is in their hearts through their lives." Again, the human heart is sinful, and therefore all humans are sinful.
These texts indicate, then, that human nature is corrupt. Therefore, even infants are corrupt because they are human. And if infants are corrupt, then this is the same as saying that we are born corrupt--which means we are born with original sin. One may, however, object that these texts speak nothing of infants, only those who are old enough to make moral decisions. All of those people are sinful, but this doesn't mean that infants are.
This is an ingenious objection, but it does not succeed. First, the texts do not seem to restrict themselves to people who are old enough to make intelligent decisions. They seem to speak of human nature as a whole, a classification under which infants certainly fall. Second, as Jonathan Edwards pointed out, "..this would not alter the case...For if all mankind, as soon as ever they are capable of reflecting, and knowing their own moral state, find themselves wicked, this proves that they are wicked by nature."
In other words, even if these verses were only speaking of people old enough to mentally understand sin, they would still be teaching original sin. For on that view, these verses would be saying that all people, as soon as they know good from evil, find themselves sinners. But if all people, as soon as they are capable of moral decisions, find themselves sinners, this proves that they are that way by nature.
Third, Edwards also says, "why should man be so continually spoken of as evil, carnal, perverse, deceitful, and desperately wicked, if all men are by nature as perfectly innocent, and free form any propensity to evil, as Adam was the first moment of his creation?" (Edwards, The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin, 188).
Infants die, therefore they are not innocent
Death--both physical and spiritual--is a result of sin (Romans 5:12; 6:23). Thus, death only comes upon those who have sinned. Since infants die, they therefore must be sinners. It could be objected that Christ was sinless, and yet He died. But He willingly gave up His life, and He did it to conquer the curse of death that we were under. In fact, God imputed to Christ our sins on the cross, and Christ died in punishment of those sins.
If humanity is not born in sin, wouldn't we expect there to be some people who have "beaten the odds" and never sinned?
If we are born innocent and good, why aren't there at least some people who have continued in this state and remained sinless? The fact that everybody sins needs some explanation. The best explanation is that we are sinners by nature. Someone might argue that the reason all people sin is because society is sinful, and thus society renders it impossible for anybody to keep themselves entirely pure. But that only pushes the question back one step. How did society get sinful in the first place? If people are born morally good, then how did it come about that they congregated into socities that influence all people to sin?
Further Resources
Jonathan Edwards, The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin Defended in The Works of Jonathan Edwards Volume I, pp. 143-233.
Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology, chapter 24, "Sin."
I agree with you PJ, and after reading the article, Edwards has no spiritual revelation, or insight into God's word whatsoever.
Plus, Edwards was also into mataphycis, so he was messed up from jump-street:ROFL:
His interpretation of Psalm 51:5, is so far off until its not funny. David is speaking about the same thing Paul speaks about in Romans chapters 5,6,7, and the only way you will be able to understand what it means to born in sin, which means with a nature to sin because of Adam's disobedienc, is to read those chapter and allow the Holy Spirit to REVEAL God's word to you.
Born with a sin nature is the reference here, not that a person is considered a sinner at birth, but that the person has an inborn sin nature TO sin, is capble of sin.
James, if you guys say you understand what God speaks about imputed sin and imputed righteousness, than you should surely, understand Psalm 51:5... although our sin nature operates in us, Christ judge this oln nature on the cross. As I've said ebfore , we have two natures working on the inside of us, and Romans chpater 7 explains how this is and works...we have the sin nature of Adam, and the righteous nature of Christ... and only the Holy Spirit who lives on the inside of all believers who have received Christ into their live, is the ONLY one who can control us when we have surrended our ways to Him, so that we do not give in to the temptation of our sin nature...old man of sin vs new man in Christ... it war between the two natures.
A child has without sin, until he/she understands the operations of his/her nature... God views the child as innocent. His take on this is very weak and not even close to what scripture teaches...
And yes, there are people who lived and still are living live styles without willful sins, who do not give in to the temptation of their flesh, who don't drink, or drug, or party, or sleep around, or lie, or steal or cheat others, and don't do many other things God calls sins as in Galatians chapter 5... so Edwards piece is waaaay off course.
Systematic theology is null and void, it is man's interpretation and reasoning of what man THINk God means and is saying, and has not one thing to do with spirutal revelation of God's word. Man has made the word fo God of no effect with all man's foolishness and thesis to prove what he thinks God is saying and theological doctrine that cannot be found in the BIble.
The word of God is simple and plain and if a person reads and seeks God, He will teaches you everything you need to know just as He promised. God will open your eye of understanding into HIs word and you will see God's meanings of what He is saying, and not man's...
However this is a good piece for spiritual discussion if one is spiritually intuned wih the truth of God's word, and is able to understand and know the turth without getting lost and confused with twisted interpretations of Edwards own personal thought and opinions.
If Christ gave His Bride The Complete Truth...all She needed to Know Concerning Faith and Morals...
..The Full Deposit of FAIYH
-- How could She have been Wrong concerning Original Sin?
I'll answer that
"She was NOT!"
She only Repeats what Christ Told Her (Oral Revelation) and what She Knows to be True -- which is...Written (Scripture) and Oral (Sacred Traditiuon). It is these Revelations from God that is The Full Deposit of Faith that is
The Pillar and Foundation of TRUTH.
Original Sin Exists.
That is why Baptism is Essential and Necessary to
Regenerate (Remove) Original Sin.
How can some of you think that you Know Better than those that Walked with CHRIST?
Because Paul SAID SO! Rome is not wrong on every single issue.
I think Paul made it as clear as possible in Romans chapter 5.
"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned� for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come."
18Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men,
How you can read that and NOT believe in Original Sin???
Adam and Eve were chosen to REPRESENT the human race, and they did, and that means that YOU AND I would have done the exact same thing.
You reject what Paul TEACHES in Romans 5 about original sin?
Then answer me this:
HOW COME the punishments given to Adam and Eve, are ALSO given to EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO EVER LIVED????
And you can't complain too loudly about imputed sin, because they only way we can be saved is by imputed righteousness of Jesus!
Arch said:
If Christ gave His Bride The Complete Truth...all She needed to Know Concerning Faith and Morals...
..The Full Deposit of FAIYH
-- How could She have been Wrong concerning Original Sin?
I'll answer that
"She was NOT!"
James replies:
First off, Archimedes, "she", the church INCLUDES all Christians from all time, NOT just the early church.
Secondly, the early church got some things wrong. They did NOT have the benefit of hundreds and hundreds of years of reflection upon reflection and insight upon insight.
SOME of the early church fathers believed some pretty weird things.
I am Reformed, and I take my cues from the Reformers, and What I can do is SHOW that what I believe was believed by Christians from the beginning all the way up to today, and of course using Scripture every step of the way.
Arch said:
She only Repeats what Christ Told Her (Oral Revelation) and what She Knows to be True -- which is...Written (Scripture) and Oral (Sacred Traditiuon). It is these Revelations from God that is The Full Deposit of Faith that is
James replies:
I agree, except there are no traditions that are "sacred".
The Roman Catholic Idea of putting church traditions before Scripture is EXACTLY why Rome became the apostate body that it is today.
Arch said:
Original Sin Exists.
James replies:
Yes, we agree on this.
Arch said:
That is why Baptism is Essential and Necessary to
Regenerate (Remove) Original Sin.
James replies:
No. Baptism is a symbolic act showing what God has ALREADY DONE in the life of the believer.
Dunking people in water does NOT make them come alive spiritually. The Holy Spirit does this.
Arch said:
How can some of you think that you Know Better than those that Walked with CHRIST?
James replies:
No one is saying that. The Apostles left us the New Testament and we are saying what the Reformers said to the Pope:
Faith alone, Scripture alone.
Since you are asking Questions, I will ask some of you......
How can you read Scripture and THEN enter a Catholic church?
Does bowing down to statues and worshiping Mary and pretending that you can have salvation by attending ceremonies, not make you sick when you KNOW the Bible says that all of those things are lies and sin?
When Jesus says simply to his disciples to eat the bread and drink the wine and remember Him that way, and Rome has turned that into a bizarre ceremony where the Christian is not allowed to even TOUCH the bread, or drink the wine???
How can you be a Catholic, and KNOW that Jesus is NOT on the cross, and that he reigns in heaven, and YET.....the only way Rome shows Jesus is as if He is STILL HANGING THERE???
Have you ever read anything Luther said? Have you ever read how many times different Popes have contradicted one another?
Do you know Rome STILL sells indulgences?
And MOST importantly.....
How can you be a Catholic, and KNOW that Paul TAUGHT and Jesus SAID and the Apostles PREACHED that a man can ONLY be save by faith, and yet, Rome teaches faith plus works???
They literally teach that Jesus is not good enough!!!
