If you agree that The Catholic Church is the Church Jesus started and has since become Apostate.
How do explain that
Jesus Said that
"...the Gates of Hades would Not Overcome Her..."
James replies:
If.....one reads the words of Jesus about the church, Jesus is talking about the group of people that the Father gave to Him, and NOT an organization. Jesus died for the elect, and the Father gave them to him, and Jesus said that he would not lose even one of them.
New International Version (�1984)
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Did Jesus Lie?
Was Jesus Lying when He said that She would be here until His Return?
James replies:
Yes, this is THE foundational verse that Rome uses to build the idea of Papism off of.
Jesus was NOT saying that Peter himself was the rock, it was the idea that Peter BELIEVED. Jesus being the Messiah, and trusting in Him for salvation IS THE ROCK, the foundation that the church is built on.
Arch continues:
How is it Possible for The Church that Jesus Started to become Apostate?
James replies:
I think that PLENTY of the leadership, in Rome, and most of the Popes were not even Christian. These popes and bishops positions became political appointments and gifts that were given to certain people. Anyone that reads church history will find bishops and Popes that were scoundrels, who behaved just like politicians of today.
"the church" is ALL true believers in Jesus, the elect of God.
But first of all I would like to point out that Jesus did not, and could not have lied.
What we are discussing is the interpretation of His words.
As much as Sir James may be right....I still a stuck with one question.
Peter did after receiving the Holy Spirit not address himself to gentiles as Paul did but to Jews in and around the Temple in Jerusalem!
I suppose I may conclude, as I read Acts, that Peter was led and guided by The Holy Spirit.
So how would you gentlemen - both Archimedes and SirJames - interpret this particular bible verse, taking into account that Peter did not do anything near from establishing a new church (neither did Jesus)
2 Timothy 3:16; & 2 Tim 4:3,4: � **ALL SCRIPTURE** is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.... For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
Matthew 1:24,25: When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her **UNTIL** she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
Mark 6:1,3:Jesus left and went to His hometown...and began to teach...They asked, "Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't His sisters here with us?"
Mark 3:31-34: Then Jesus' mother and BROTHERS arrived. Standing outside...A crowd was sitting around Him, and they told Him, "Your mother and BROTHERS are outside looking for you." "Who are My mother and my brothers?" Jesus asked. Then He looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother!"
Matthew 6:6,9-11: Jesus says, �When you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your **Father**, who is unseen. Then your **Father**, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you ...This then is how you should pray: �Our Father in Heaven, hallowed be your name, your Kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.....�
Is there even one instance where a believer prayed to someone other than the **Father** in the OT or the NT?? Answer; ZERO!
What church:devil: had its evil leader:devil: decree that it is OK to pray to and worship Mary, a human being, who was a sinless VIRGIN??
I Timothy 3:1-5:If anyone sets his heart on being an Overseer or Bishop, he desires a noble task. Now the Overseer or Bishop must be the husband of but one wife.....He must manage his own family well..If anyone does no know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church? I Tim 3:12 and Titus 1:6: Deacons and Elders should also be the husband of but one wife.
I Corinthians 9:5: Paul said �Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other Apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas {PETER} What church:devil: became famous for having thousands of their unmarried priests fondle and seduce hundreds of thousands of innocent and trusting children?? There were over 250 Roman Catholic priests and teachers found guilty of seducing children just in the German province of Munich alone. As a result over 200,000 disgusted Germans and about 76,000 Austrians left the Roman Catholic Church in 2010.
Matthew 23:9: Jesus says, �Do not call ANYONE on earth 'father,' for you have ONE {Spiritual} Father, and He is in Heaven!!� What Church calls all their priests spiritual �Fathers�?? And their Satanic leader:devil: �Holy Father�?? And their evil followers bow down and kiss his ring and worship him???
This Church:devil: actually claims that they do not worship Mary but what are all these "Hail Mary's" all about??? Actually this Church worships and prays to Mary far more than they worship Jesus and His Father combined even though God's Word commands us over 100 times to Worship and pray to GOD ALONE!!
Hebrews 9:15,26b-28: Christ is the mediator of a NEW COVENANT so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant...But now He has APPEARED ONCE FOR ALL at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the SACRIFICE of Himself... so Christ was SACRIFICED ONCE to take away the sins of many people, and He will *APPEAR* a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him. Hebrews 10:10: �We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus **ONCE FOR ALL**!!�
What Church:devil: believes that Jesus has to die every day except Good Friday to take away sins and that Satanic priests:devil: have the power to change wine into the blood of Jesus which they drink and wafers into the body of Jesus which they eat.
Romans 6:9,10: "We know that since Christ was raised from the dead, *HE CANNOT DIE AGAIN*; death no longer has mastery over Him. The death He died,* HE DIED FOR SIN **ONCE** FOR ALL*; but the life He lives He lives to God!":applause::peace:
:angel:...:purpleangel:...:angel:...:purpleangel:...:angel:...:purpleangel:...:angel:...:purpleangel:...Sorry Gents...:glow:...jus had an impulse to post 7 Angels plus 1 extra to counter act all that :angeldevil: stuff...:prayingm:...:bow:...:prayingf:...xo
I have seen men that I admired very much�Learned Men whose Books I�ve read and Learned Much from�I�ve seen these Ministers � Twist and Stretch and Manipulate this Verse as if they were Creating some sort of Origami and finally place it down before me and say
�There�see�This is What Jesus Was REALLY Saying!�
Matthew 16:18-20
New International Version (NIV)
18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.� 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 16:18 The Greek word for Peter means rock.
b. Matthew 16:18 That is, the realm of the dead
c. Matthew 16:19 Or will have been
d. Matthew 16:19 Or will have been
18 And I tell you that you are Peter,
Jesus changed Simon�s Name to ROCK (can there be any other meaning?)
��and on this rock I will build my church,��
(On) Peter (Around) Peter (With) Peter (As His Vicar) Christ Will BUILD HIS CHURCH.
��and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it.�
Nothing�(Repeat) NOTHING�will Overcome HER!
��19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven;��
If you read Isaiah 22:15-25
You will read where God Removes one in Authority (Bishop�Prime Minister) and REPLACES him with Another. This person that is being removed is part of a Dynasty going back to King David. All Power and Authority is PASSED On from One to The Next (through Ritual and Ceremony).
Verses 20 � 23 are Important because in those Verses you will read
��The Key to the HOUSE of David��
Signifying that �The Key� was being PASSED ON! When you �Turn Over� The Key to anything�you are Giving that Person FULL CONTROL and AUTHORITY!
This was The Dynasty of The House of David Being PASSED ON to the Next in LINE! Here are those Verses
Isaiah 22:20 - 24
New International Version (NIV)
20 �In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. 21 I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and
��Hand Your Authority over to him�.�
He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the people of Judah. 22 I will place on his shoulder
��the key to the house of David;�
��what he opens no one can shut,��
�� and what he shuts no one can open��
23 I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will become a seat[a] of honor for the house of his father. 24 All the glory of his family will hang on him: its offspring and offshoots�all its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars.
If this is Similar to
19 ��I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.�
It is Because in One Instance a Dynasty was being Passed On (Isaiah) and the in the Other�A Dynasty was being STARTED!
While in Isaiah it was an Earthly HOUSE (David�s)
In Matthew it was The KINGDOM Of HEAVEN and it was KEYS.
Whereas in Isaiah the Laws The Bishop Inacted (door shut) or Deactivated (door open) were Earthly
(You cannot park here�the Pubs have to close at 11PM etc)
In Mathew the Laws were also IN HEAVEN (Backed by GOD)!
You can Twist your Arms here and there to try and get a �better� reception to �improve� the image of what you are trying to �sell��but�The TRUTH is very Clear and Plain.
Thank you for your Question and for the way it was presented (I swear I can Smell a Lovely Fragrance in the Air).
It took 100�s of Years to �Build� a Church. Back when Peter was Vicar it was really a �Movement�.
In Acts it is Clear that Peter had the Last Word (although Paul Contested some of them). You will find many �Peter said�� throughout Acts. There is no Mistake that Peter was In Charge.
You are �correct� in saying Neither Christ or Peter �Started� a Church in today�s sense of the word. Neither purchased a building�gave it a name�advertised�bought frocks and AV equipment.
But Christ has been there from The Beginning and has Given His Grace when NEEDED (to The Martyrs�Evangelists�Missionaries).
And Peter as Her First Vicar acted as Spiritual Father and Chief Protector of Christ�s Deposit of FAITH.
Yes�by The Sixteen Century She needed Reforming (many of her Priests and Cardinals had become Corrupt) and�Yes�there were Popes that were Down Right EVIL!
But Christ Overcomes ALL! Christ is not Depended on Man�He PROMISED that Everything (ALL TRUTHS) He Gave His BRIDE�Would Remain Inviolate�Until HIS RETURN!
Worship wherever you wish to�God Hears you. If you are Christian�you are a Brother or Sister of mine. The TRUTH is There�In Scripture!
PETROS is always translated PETER in the NT and PETRA is always translated "ROCK"
Matthew 16:15-18: Jesus asked, "Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter {Petros} answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God," Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but My Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter {Petros}, and on this ROCK {Petra} I will build My Church."
It is interesting to note that "PETRA" is mentioned exactly 15 times in the NT and every time it is translated "ROCK!".
"PETROS" is mentioned exactly 155 times in the NT and every time it is translated "PETER" and is **NEVER** translated ROCK!!
And Jesus Christ is called the "ROCK" two times in the NT in I Corinthians 10:4!! In talking about the water that Israel drank for 40 years in the wilderness:
I Corinthians 4:3,4: "They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from the spiritual "ROCK" that accompanied them, and that **ROCK** was CHRIST!!"
Colossians 1:18: "He {Christ} is the **HEAD** of the body, the church, He is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in *EVERYTHING* He might have the supremacy."
Ephesians 5:22-25: Wives, submit you your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as *Christ* is the **HEAD** of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior. Now the church submits to Christ , so also wives should submit to the husbands in *EVERYTHING*!"
Ephesians 1:22,23: And God placed *ALL THINGS* under His feet and appointed Him to be the **HEAD** over **EVERYTHING** for the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills **EVERYTHING** in **EVERY WAY*!":applause::peace:
You must have been listening at "church" when the Elders were talking but you misunderstood what they were saying.
It was an old ploy that was quickly dropped that went something like this...
Petros (Peter in Greek) translates "small stones"..."pebbles" and that is what Christ was saying about Peter...(that Peter was "small stones"..."Small Potatoes"
But that CHRIST was The ROCK (Petra..."large Stone...Outcropping") upon which He Will Build His Church!
It makes so much Sense!!
I mean in Scripture the only usage of the word Rock was when used to Signify GOD. God would never call a Man....Rock!!
Protestants were Leaping for Joy!
Finally...something that Made Sense and was Scriptural!
Alast...it did not last very long.
It was pointed out to them that Christ spoke in Aramaic.
There is only one word in Aramaic for Rock and that word meant...wait for it...ROCK!
When what Jesus said was translated into Greek...the auyhor had a choice of given Simon (Peter) a Feminine Name (Petras) or a Masculine name (Petros).
However why is Is Christ called Petra if Petra is feminine instead of Petros in I Corinthians 10:4. Why is Petros never translated Rock Once in the NT?? Petros is translated Peter 155 times in the NT and is not translated Rock even 1 time!!
If Peter is the Head of the Church why does God say that Jesus the Rock {*PETRA*} is the only Head over everything for the church 3 times in the NT???
PETROS is always translated PETER in the NT and PETRA is always translated "ROCK"
Matthew 16:15-18: Jesus asked, "Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter {Petros} answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God," Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but My Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter {Petros}, and on this ROCK {Petra} I will build My Church."
It is interesting to note that "PETRA" is mentioned exactly 15 times in the NT and every time it is translated "ROCK!".
"PETROS" is mentioned exactly 155 times in the NT and every time it is translated "PETER" and is **NEVER** translated ROCK!!
And Jesus Christ is called the "ROCK" two times in the NT in I Corinthians 10:4!! In talking about the water that Israel drank for 40 years in the wilderness:
I Corinthians 4:3,4: "They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from the spiritual "ROCK"{*PETRA*} that accompanied them, and that **ROCK**{*PETRA*} was CHRIST!!"
Colossians 1:18: "He {Christ} is the **HEAD** of the body, the church, He is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in *EVERYTHING* He might have the supremacy."
Ephesians 5:22-25: Wives, submit you your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as *Christ* is the **HEAD** of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior. Now the church submits to Christ , so also wives should submit to the husbands in *EVERYTHING*!"
Ephesians 1:22,23: And God placed *ALL THINGS* under His feet and appointed Him to be the **HEAD** over **EVERYTHING** for the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills **EVERYTHING** in **EVERY WAY*!":applause::peace: