Thread: Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality
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Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality
Posted : 29 Jul, 2011 06:06 PM
The CDFF system is censoring this post, and i cannot find anything in bold letters which may be causing it. Its usually a word in the King James Version which is censored like the word it uses for prostitute. I will see if I can post it in sections
The King of the North as a more general metaphor is about the
big bankers of the North creating riches for themselves by usury.
Banking and usury started in earnest in ancient historical
Babylon, in the city of Babylon and in nearby cities. Guess what modern nation
the old city of Babylon is in?
"In the 1920's, Sir Leonard Woolley, excavating the Mesopotamian city
of Ur, the fabled birthplace of Abraham, found himself standing in the
remains of what must have been an upper middle class neighborhood near
the center of the ancient city....Professor Marc Van De Mieroop of
Columbia University has used
Woolley's careful excavation notes to match the dozens of excavated
clay tablets to the homes where they were found. From these, he has
been able to identify what must have been a very early "Wall
Street...Many of the clay tablets found were records of loans for
which the
lenders collected interest, or usury. The article on usury in ancient
historical Babylon goes on to say that:
"It is difficult to escape the conclusion that, while the first loan
contracts and the legal system that enforced them may have been good
for the Mesopotamian economy, they made life miserable for the working
man and woman."
"...his heart shall be against the holy covenant."
This is part of Daniel 11: 28, really another prophecy.
George W Bush, who was helped to become president by many conservative Christians and was supported by them, thinking he was also a Chistian, were forsaken when Bush claimed that Christians and Muslims "worship the same God." So, his "heart" was against the "holy covenant." Obama is doing much the same thing.
In Daniel 11: 25 the King of the North shall stir up his power and courage against the King of the South
with a great army. Many won't like this idea that this prophecy can have more than one application, not only in time
but also in geographical locations. The somewhat detailed scenarios of Daniel 11 may have repeated in history, though I don't know the details of history well enough to show how the scenarios have worked for different periods of time and in different locations of the world.
There has been a North versus South struggle in many nations. North versus South Korea is just one example, where the South has so far come out best. In the British islands, the North, as Scotland, was in a political and military struggle with the South as England in times past, and the South won out to put Scotland under its rule. In the United States there was a political conflict between the more industrial North with its elite which was more of a money power against the more agrarian South which wanted to maintain the older system in which the states had greater sovereignty than the North wanted. The conflict between the Northern elite led by the former Calvinist Puritans of New England who had become a money power elite (usury) and the agrarian planter and slave holding elite of the South resulted in the 1861-65 war.
The King of the North is said
to stir up his power and courage against the king of the South with
a great army. Remember, soon after Lincoln was elected, the
War of Northern Aggression began, the King of the North against the King of
the South in 1861-65. Verse 29 says the King of the North shall
return and come toward the south. In the scenario of the War of
Federal Aggression, the King of the North kept coming back again after
the South defeated his army in battle on several occasions. The more
impulsive South apparently believed that if they could win a few battles that they
could win their independence. But the North, allied with the federal govenment under the Radical Republicans,
was systematic and deliberate and would not give
up its drive to rule over the states of the South.
Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality
Posted : 29 Jul, 2011 06:08 PM
Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality
Popular end time prophecy almost always puts the fulfillment in the
vague future, most often sometime during the tribulation. Even the prophecy
of Paul in II Thessalonians 2: 3 about the falling away is placed in the
tribulation by popular prophecy writers.
Daniel 11 is a different kind of Bible prophecy. It states fairly explicit
scanarios of action by two figures in conflict with one another, the King of the North
and the King of the South. It starts in Daniel 11: 4, "And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those."
The Greek military leader, Alexander, died and his empire was divided into four major portions to four of his generals in about 301 BC: (1) Cassander ruled over Greece, (2) Lysimachus ruled in Asia Minor, (3) Seleucus I Nicator ruled in Babylon and Persia, and (4) Ptolemy I Soter ruled over the Holy Land and Egypt. Cassander and Lysimachus dropped out of the picture and two kings were left, the Seleucus empire in Babylon and Persia and the Ptolemy empire in Egypt and Palestine.
Daniel 11: 4 fits with the division of Alexander's empire. This does not necessarly mean that the entire prophecy of Daniel 11 as given to Daniel by the angel in Daniel 10: 8-21 is just a description of the events in history involving the struggle between the Ptolemaic and Seleucid empires. The angel says to Daniel in Daniel 10: 21, "But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince." Why would an angel from God be sent to Daniel the prophet to tell him the forcoming history of the battles between the Seleucid and Ptolemaic empires? This history does not reach the time when Christ was born during the Roman empire.
There is likely more to Daniel 11 than the story of the history of battles between the house of Ptolemy and the house of Seleucus. The "scripture of truth" is not likely to be limited to political and military struggles between two dynasties.
Starting in Daniel 11: 5 the text describes a series of actions in the struggle between the King of the North and the King of the South.
To try to keep this from being very long, lets jump ahead to Daniel 11: 24, and began there. The modern division of the North from the South internationally began in 1991 when the Soviet Union fell. After that, the main division was no longer between the West and the East, but between the industrial North controlled in large part by big bankers and the less developed nations of the South, where the many Islamic nations are important, though the South now includes some nations of South America (Venezuela under Hugo Chavez is one example) and perhaps China. Though China is not necessarily in the geographic South, it is allied with the developing nations of the South, and would boost their political, monetary, economic and military powers tremendously.
"...he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his father's fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches....." (Daniel 11:24) "He" is the King of the North.
The modern scenario that fits this part of the prophecy in Daniel 11: 24 is this: George H.W. Bush defeated the forces of
Saddam Hussein in the first Gulf War, but did not bring about a regime change. His son George W. Bush in Gulf War Two invaded
Iraq and took over the country, ousting Saddam Hussein. He did that which his father did not do. There is a reference in the text to spoil and riches. I will get to that later.
"And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of
the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be
stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall
not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.
26. Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy
him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain." Daniel 11: 25-26
Again "he" in verse 25 is the King of the North. In the period of 2001 to 2008 George W. Bush held
the office of the King of the North. He began his war against Iraq in March of 2003 and it is not
Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality
Posted : 29 Jul, 2011 06:13 PM
With a great army George Bush Junior stirred up his and the power of the U.S. and its courage
to attack Saddam's forces. Bush and his generals
forecasted devices against Saddam in saying they were going to war because Saddam
had weapons of mass destruction. Bush bragged that they would mount an attack of "shock and awe"
against the third world army of Saddam. When Bush's "lets roll"
army got near Baghdad, the agents of the King of the North bribed the
commanders of the Republican Guard not to fight. Later these bribed
generals are said to have been re-located to the U.S. and given more rewards.
These Republican Guard generals fed at the portion of Saddam's
meat but destroyed Saddam. They caused their troops not to fight and
as a result Saddam was defeated and hanged.
"Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart
shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and
return to his own land." Daniel 11: 28
George W. Bush, the oil man, was set up to own an oil company and later to become President
by his carpetbagger father who went to Texas
to exploit the Texans. Bush Junior went into Iraq for oil and returned with control of Saddam's oil
and his buddies Halliburton and (Censored for CDFF) Cheney made millions if not
billions from that war. Who knows if Bush didn't get some of the money they made
off the war? Bush made great riches for a few from the war.
The "King of the North," or the ruling elite which is now in charge of
the nations of the north, is empowered by usury. Usury is forbidden to
be used by God's people in Exodus 22: 25, Leviticus 25: 36-37,
Deuteronomy 23: 19-20, Ezekiel 18: 8, 13,, 17, Ezekiel 22: 12 and a
few other texts. Usury is making money from charging interest on
loans. The big usury bankers are parasites, who are allied with the
U.S. and other governments, so that they feed money into the economy
through debt, and then (censored for CDFF) the money of the people from interest
on these debts.
The King of the North as a more general metaphor is about the
big bankers of the North creating riches for themselves by usury.
Banking and usury started in earnest in ancient historical
Babylon, in the city of Babylon and in nearby cities. Guess what modern nation
the old city of Babylon is in?
"In the 1920's, Sir Leonard Woolley, excavating the Mesopotamian city
of Ur, the fabled birthplace of Abraham, found himself standing in the
remains of what must have been an upper middle class neighborhood near
the center of the ancient city....Professor Marc Van De Mieroop of
Columbia University has used
Woolley's careful excavation notes to match the dozens of excavated
clay tablets to the homes where they were found. From these, he has
been able to identify what must have been a very early "Wall
Street...Many of the clay tablets found were records of loans for
which the
lenders collected interest, or usury. The article on usury in ancient
historical Babylon goes on to say that:
"It is difficult to escape the conclusion that, while the first loan
contracts and the legal system that enforced them may have been good
for the Mesopotamian economy, they made life miserable for the working
man and woman."
"...his heart shall be against the holy covenant."
This is part of Daniel 11: 28, really another prophecy.
George W Bush, who was helped to become president by many conservative Christians and was supported by them, thinking he was also a Chistian, were forsaken when Bush claimed that Christians and Muslims "worship the same God." So, his "heart" was against the "holy covenant." Obama is doing much the same thing.
In Daniel 11: 25 the King of the North shall stir up his power and courage against the King of the South
with a great army. Many won't like this idea that this prophecy can have more than one application, not only in time
but also in geographical locations. The somewhat detailed scenarios of Daniel 11 may have repeated in history, though I don't know the details of history well enough to show how the scenarios have worked for different periods of time and in different locations of the world.
There has been a North versus South struggle in many nations. North versus South Korea is just one example, where the South has so far come out best. In the British islands, the North, as Scotland, was in a political and military struggle with the South as England in times past, and the South won out to put Scotland under its rule. In the United States there was a political conflict between the more industrial North with its elite which was more of a money power against the more agrarian South which wanted to maintain the older system in which the states had greater sovereignty than the North wanted. The conflict between the Northern elite led by the former Calvinist Puritans of New England who had become a money power elite (usury) and the agrarian planter and slave holding elite of the South resulted in the 1861-65 war.
The King of the North is said
to stir up his power and courage against the king of the South with
a great army. Remember, soon after Lincoln was elected, the
War of Northern Aggression began, the King of the North against the King of
the South in 1861-65. Verse 29 says the King of the North shall
return and come toward the south. In the scenario of the War of
Federal Aggression, the King of the North kept coming back again after
the South defeated his army in battle on several occasions. The more
impulsive South apparently believed that if they could win a few battles that they
could win their independence. But the North, allied with the federal government under the Radical Republicans,
was systematic and deliberate and would not give
up its drive to rule over the states of the South.
Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality
Posted : 29 Jul, 2011 07:00 PM
Half back said:
The "King of the North," or the ruling elite which is now in charge of the nations of the north, is empowered by usury. Usury is forbidden to be used by God's people in Exodus 22: 25, Leviticus 25: 36-37, Deuteronomy 23: 19-20, Ezekiel 18: 8, 13,, 17, Ezekiel 22: 12 and afew other texts. Usury is making money from charging interest on loans. The big usury bankers are parasites, who are allied with the U.S. and other governments, so that they feed money into the economythrough debt, and then (censored for CDFF) the money of the people from interest
on these debts."
Haha OH WOW!....That was a great post Halfback.
King of the North i was seeing in more of a spiritual light...But i know scripture is multilayered and has Dozens of layers of meaning in each passage. and this is just WOW...its really really sad the ammount of Americans who just assume anyone who is "Conservative" and claims "jesus" is actually a Christan and doing GODS WILL.
Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality
Posted : 29 Jul, 2011 08:34 PM
Prophecies are deliberately vague so that when people read them in the centuries to follow their authorship, they'll seem relevant and contemporary. But people will see whatever they wanna see. Like when images of Jesus appear on pieces of toast, or when people think they saw an alien spacecraft. I think people often make the mistake of thinking that ancient prophecies were predictions. They're not the same. A prediction is specific, a prophecy isn't.
a Prediction: Tomorrow will be hot and humid.
a Prophecy: In the days ahead, it will be hot and humid.
I can analyze the past, note the temperature and humidity from today and make a fairly accurate prediction about tomorrow. But saying "in the days ahead" could refer to tomorrow or a thousand years from now. That's the difference.
If it pleases you believing Jewish prophecies are unfolding now swell. Suppose it's better than never thinking about them.
Daniel 11 and Prophecy That Can Fit Present Day Reality
Posted : 30 Jul, 2011 02:20 AM
"If it pleases you believing Jewish prophecies are unfolding now swell. Suppose it's better than never thinking about them."
Daniel 10: 8-21 is about the angel who came to tell Daniel the prophecies of the eleventh chapter. Was this angel a Jew?
Old Testament prophecy, from Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and the several minor prophets, including Zechariah are not "Jewish" prophecies, though sometimes these prophets do deal with the apostasy of the Israelites. The Holy Spirit inspired the prophets of the Old Testament just as he inspired those of the New. Because the guys who were inspired in the Old Testament period were Hebrews does not mean at all that they wrote "Jewish Prophecy."
The scenarios of Daniel 11 are more specific than, for example, Revelation 17: 11, and Zechariah 13: 8-9. Rev 17: 11, the six, seven, eight cycle runs over and over in the Bible. It is a spiritual cycle. Number six is man without having been spiritually changed by God so he can relate to God. Man was made on the sixth day (Genesis 1: 26). In Genesis 2: 2-3 God ended his work of creating the universe and blessed the seventh day. Man was to rest on the seventh day of the week to signify being in the rest of God, and actually to rest so man could not grow tired.
The beast that was in Rev 17: 11 is the eighth, and is of the seventh.
This must be the second beast of Rev 13: 11-18, the one who has two horns like a lamb, but speaks like a dragon. This beast is often called the False Prophet, but it is an image that the popular
interpreters of prophecy have anthropomorphized into one single super "False Prophet"and again placed in the vague future, in the tribulation. The second beast can also be seen as the church after the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3 which has been going on for decades, thought the pop prophets say this too will only happen during the tribulation.
Note that in Rev 13: 18 the number of this beast which is said to be the number of man is 666. I know many translations say of A man, but for some strange reason the NIV, the Never Inspired Version, has it right: its the number of man.
So man who is in number seven, in the rest of God, because he has been changed by God, or actually a few men have been changed by God, but they are salt and influence the whole world to some extent, according to the six, seven, eight cycle, will move out of number seven into number eight. Number eight is a mix of being in God with a return to man's religion. It is Talmudic Judaism, Roman Catholicism and evangelical Protestantism after the falling away. The six, seven, eight cycle can be used to predict empires that have within them a Christian remnant that salts the whole empire to some extent.
Zechariah 13: 8-9 is an abstract "blueprint" or fundamental principle derived from the triune nature of God. This principle can predict in an abstract way the divisions within the group of people who claim to belong to God. There are three parts to the people who claim to be of God. Two parts go bad, and God rejects them, but one part, not necessarily one third, turn to God and to his truth (Christ IS the truth, not just one who brings us the truth) and God accepts them. This principle may be seen as more specific than it is, applying to the end time apostasy of the church. And some reduce it down or diminish it as a general principle and say it only deals with the Jews. Its again a "Jewish" scripture.
Daniel 11 is somewhat like Rev 17: 11 and Zechariah. But it is more specific than these basic principles. The pop prophets have conditioned many in the churches to see prophecy in the Bible as having been written for one specific fulfillment, and not for more than one fulfillment. Some prophecy was written for one fulfillment, such as those on the coming of Christ. But not all prophecy was was written to have just one fulfillment. Thjis tendency to see prophecy as specific to only one thing, usually in the tribulation, probably comes from the assumption that the Bible must always be interpreted literally, which is a false assumption.
