The great themes of the Scriptures start in Genesis and end in Revelation; where we get in trouble, as a Church, is to start imposing separations and systems that just aren't there. One way that we do this is by placing a great divide between the Old and New Testaments. To not see great continuity between the Testaments one has to contort the scriptures to absurdity - thankfully most in Christendom aren't consistent enough to accomplish that, even though their stated positions do. One such contortion is to read The Great Commission and Evangelism as a completely NEW, and thus unique, call to the Church. However, Evangelism is not new, it has been a part of the plan since the beginning. Here are some examples:
Israel being called to faith and repentance: Deut. 30:8; Josh. 24:15; Lev. 5:5; 16:29-31; Deut 10:16; Ezek. 18:30-31;
Israel being called witness to their children: Deut. 6:7, 20-25;
Israel being called to witness to their neighbors: Jer. 31:34;
David's call to witness to the nations: Ps. 18:49;
David's prayer that salvation would be known among all the nations: Ps. 67;
David's confidence that all nations would be converted: Ps. 22:27;
The missionary work of the prophets: Isa. 2:2-4; 19:25; 40:5, 9; 42:6; 45:22; 49:6; 56:7; 66:19; Zech. 8:23; cf. Ps. 68:31; 85:92;
So, clearly, it is established that Evangelism was prescribed and practiced in the Old Testament; but what does that buy us? It gets us several things:
The consistent Character of God. Same God, same work, same destiny. This means, then that there has always been one plan of redemption, no changes, and no accidents.
More proof that God's Word (and Law) applies to all people, in every time, everywhere. There is a modern error afoot that teaches that all has been abrogated until reinstated in the New Testament. This is a more "palatable" form of Dispensationalism and one that is counter-Scriptural.
It further lends proof to the idea that the New Testament is NOT a starting point, at least not in the same way it is held in the modern church. Now, granted most people would never admit this but practically speaking, especially when they ask the question "where do you see that in the New Testament", they are implicitly relying on this fallacy.
Understanding the above would also lend one to the understanding that God is at work and His work is large and grand - what He started in Israel is now EXPANDING to all the nations, and that's exciting.
In tends to inoculate us against the error that makes "saving lost souls" the primary concern and over-individualizing all things Evangelical.
Personally, I find it incredibility reassuring that Kingdom growth has always been a part of the plan Israel the Church, and that I get to live in the "last days" on the other side of the fulfillment of Genesis 3:15 to witness His Kingdom expansion. What a great time to be alive!!
Only if you never bother to actually read the above verses would you be able to believe they mean you should evangelize. Looking them up myself, maybe if you limit your read to only the verse mentioned and not the ones above or below them do they point to such a thing. But wait, no, Judaism doesn't seek converts let alone proselytize (proselytizing is illegal in modern Israel as well.)
"Judaism maintains that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come. This has been the majority rule since the days of the Talmud. Judaism generally recognizes that Christians and Moslems worship the same G-d that we do and those who follow the tenets of their religions can be considered righteous in the eyes of G-d. ...
According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come. ...
In general, Jews do not try to convert non-Jews to Judaism. In fact, according to halakhah (Jewish Law), rabbis are supposed to make three vigorous attempts to dissuade a person who wants to convert to Judaism.
As the discussion above explained, Jews have a lot of responsibilities that non-Jews do not have. To be considered a good and righteous person in the eyes of G-d, a non-Jew need only follow the seven Noahic commandments, whereas a Jew has to follow all 613 commandments given in the Torah. If the potential convert is not going to follow those extra rules, it's better for him or her to stay a gentile, and since we as Jews are all responsible for each other, it's better for us too if that person stayed a gentile. The rabbinically mandated attempt to dissuade a convert is intended to make sure that the prospective convert is serious and willing to take on all this extra responsibility."
http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm
I don't care what people say about their OWN holy text, but start saying my Tanakh says this or that, and if you're wrong in your interpretation, you're gonna hear about it.
As the discussion above explained, Jews have a lot of responsibilities that non-Jews do not have. To be considered a good and righteous person in the eyes of G-d, a non-Jew need only follow the seven Noahic commandments, whereas a Jew has to follow all 613 commandments given in the Torah. If the potential convert is not going to follow those extra rules, it's better for him or her to stay a gentile, and since we as Jews are all responsible for each other, it's better for us too if that person stayed a gentile. The rabbinically mandated attempt to dissuade a convert is intended to make sure that the prospective convert is serious and willing to take on all this extra responsibility."
Magoo:
Since you believe that a person needs to Obey the TORAH,AND THE 613 Commandments/Law/Rules.
Where then are your sacrifices for your sins?
Surely you have the ashes of a RED HEIFER,do you not.
Do you not have spotless lambs,rams,bullocks,turtle doves(for the poor).
How about the washings,and cleansings.
When was the last time you had been sprinkled with the blood of an animal?
To want people that are Christians to live according to the TORAH is like this.
A prisoner on death row has their sentence removed upon the total evidence brought before the magistrates.
The prisoner is told that they are free to go and get back into society,
As the ex-death row inmate is about to leave the prison,the Warden says;
You are free to leave,BUT you need to stay within the confines of the walls of the prison.
You have the ability to walk around,the guaards will not bother you.
The warden says;
Congradulations on being a FREE MAN.
The same thing happens when a person trusts Yeshua to set them free,and then you and others on this site want those same people to GO BACK TO THE LAW/TORAH.
John 8:30 As He spoke these things, many believed into Him.
John 8:31 Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in Him, If you continue in My Word, you are truly My disciples.
John 8:32 And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
Joh 8:33 They answered Him, We are Abraham's seed, and we have been in slavery to no one, never! How do You say, You will become free?
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Everyone practicing sin is a slave of sin.
Joh 8:35 But the slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains to the age.
Joh 8:36 Therefore, if the Son sets you free, you are free indeed.
John 8:37 I know that you are Abraham's seed, but you seek to kill Me, because My Word is not given room in you.
John 8:38 I speak what I have seen with My Father. And you therefore do what you have seen with your father.
Trust Yeshua,and Him only to save you Jeff.
form.
Joh 5:38 And you do not have His Word abiding in you, for the nOne whom that One sent, this One you do not believe.
John 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for you think in them you have everlasting life. And they are the ones witnessing concerning Me.
John 5:40 And you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
You know, Sirjames, the subject matter is very interesting. My feed back is very simple.
1) The Old Testament ends with the gospel of John.
2) The concept of Evangelism you refer to is more on the line of the Jews changing their behavior, looking to God. During the old testament all we see is God sitting upon individuals, like Jesus Christ and the Prophets. Today the spirit of God is "in us", so there is a great deal of difference between then and now.
So, thanks for the subject, perhaps if you have some time and desire, you can respond to my assertions directly, simply, and accurately.
But he was wounded for our transgressions,.... Not for any sins of his own, but for ours, for our rebellions against God, and transgressions of his law, in order to make atonement and satisfaction for them; these were the procuring and meritorious causes of his sufferings and death, as they were taken upon him by him to answer for them to divine justice, which are meant by his being wounded; for not merely the wounds he received in his hands, feet, and side, made by the nails and spear, are meant, but the whole of his sufferings, and especially his being wounded to death, and which was occasionally by bearing the sins of his people; and hereby he removed the guilt from them, and freed them from the punishment due unto them:
he was bruised for our iniquities; as bread corn is bruised by threshing it, or by its being ground in the mill, as the manna was; or as spice is bruised in a mortar, he being broken and crushed to pieces under the weight of sin, and the punishment of it. The ancient Jews understood this of the Messiah; in one place they say (o),
"chastisements are divided into three parts, one to David and the fathers, one to our generation, and one to the King Messiah; as it is written, "he was wounded for our transgressions; and bruised for our iniquities":''
and in another place (p),
"at that time they shall declare to the Messiah the troubles of Israel in captivity, and the wicked which are among them, that do not mind to know the Lord; he shall lift up his voice, and weep over the wicked among them; as it is said, "he was wounded for our transgressions", &c.''
the chastisement of our peace was upon him; that is, the punishment of our sins was inflicted on him, whereby our peace and reconciliation with God was made by him; for chastisement here does not design the chastisement of a father, and in love, such as the Lord chastises his people with; but an act of vindictive justice, and in wrath, taking vengeance on our sins, of our surety, whereby divine wrath is appeased, justice is satisfied, and peace is made:
and with his stripes we are healed; or "by his stripe" (q), or "bruise": properly the black and blue mark of it, so called from the gathering and settling of the blood where the blow is given. Sin is a disease belonging to all men, a natural, hereditary, nauseous, and incurable one, but by the blood of Christ; forgiving sin is a healing of this disease; and this is to be had, and in no other way, than through the stripes and wounds, the blood and sacrifice, of the Son of God. Christ is a wonderful physician; he heals by taking the sicknesses of his people upon himself, by bearing their sins, and being wounded and bruised for them, and by his enduring blows, and suffering death itself for them. The Targum is,
"when we obey his words, our sins will be forgiven us;''
but forgiveness is not through our obedience, but the blood of Christ
Only if you never bother to actually read the above verses would you be able to believe they mean you should evangelize. Looking them up myself, maybe if you limit your read to only the verse mentioned and not the ones above or below them do they point to such a thing.
James replies:
You have made an assertion while giving no evidence. The reason they chapter and verse is given, is to SHOW that the verses are not taken out of context.
Jeff continues:
But wait, no, Judaism doesn't seek converts let alone proselytize (proselytizing is illegal in modern Israel as well.)
James replies:
Judaism rejects the Messiah, so we are not discussing what they think because they contradict and ignore the Word of God.
Jeff continues:
"Judaism maintains that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come.
James replies:
And the Bible says that there is NOT ONE who is righteous!
Jeff continues:
This has been the majority rule since the days of the Talmud. Judaism generally recognizes that Christians and Moslems worship the same G-d that we do and those who follow the tenets of their religions can be considered righteous in the eyes of G-d. ...
James replies:
That idea contradicts so many scriptures it is ridiculous!
God is HOLY, and demands PERFECT obedience to His law.
Muslims certainly do NOT worship God, because they trust in their own works, and NOT the Messiah Jesus.
Jeff continues:
According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come. ...
James replies:
THAT is a LIE from the pit of HELL!!! You act as though Jesus did not even have to die on the cross!!
In general, Jews do not try to convert non-Jews to Judaism. In fact, according to halakhah (Jewish Law), rabbis are supposed to make three vigorous attempts to dissuade a person who wants to convert to Judaism.
As the discussion above explained, Jews have a lot of responsibilities that non-Jews do not have. To be considered a good and righteous person in the eyes of G-d, a non-Jew need only follow the seven Noahic commandments, whereas a Jew has to follow all 613 commandments given in the Torah. If the potential convert is not going to follow those extra rules, it's better for him or her to stay a gentile, and since we as Jews are all responsible for each other, it's better for us too if that person stayed a gentile. The rabbinically mandated attempt to dissuade a convert is intended to make sure that the prospective convert is serious and willing to take on all this extra responsibility."
http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm
I don't care what people say about their OWN holy text, but start saying my Tanakh says this or that, and if you're wrong in your interpretation, you're gonna hear about it.
James replies:
Let me get this straight.....You are a follower of Judaism?
You reject Jesus, and YET you are on a Christian discussion group?
don't care what people say about their OWN holy text, but start saying my Tanakh says this or that, and if you're wrong in your interpretation, you're gonna hear about it.
James replies:
Let me get this straight.....You are a follower of Judaism?
You reject Jesus, and YET you are on a Christian discussion group?
You need to LEAVE and go somewhere else!
This is a CHRISTIAN discussion group.
In Christ,
James
Merciful:
James,I stand with you about this.
There are some Judaizers here trying to prosletyze the yound believers here.
What they profess ALMOST sounds good,but when one reads the Scriptures,their folly is found out.
The sad part about this, on this forum some people have publicly commended the prosletyzers about their posts.
And these same people say you and i are trying to cause division amongst the believers.
1) The Old Testament ends with the gospel of John.
2) The concept of Evangelism you refer to is more on the line of the Jews changing their behavior, looking to God. During the old testament all we see is God sitting upon individuals, like Jesus Christ and the Prophets. Today the spirit of God is "in us", so there is a great deal of difference between then and now.
James replies:
On your first point, I think the thing to be careful of is that dispensational thinking is so popular these days, and that view states that God dealt with one people a certain way, and whole other group of people another way.
This is wrong. God has ONE chosen people, whom He chose before the world was made. He has expanded his covenant as time has went one, and after Jesus He expanded the geographical area to the entire world.
On your second point, in Romans Paul goes to a great deal of explanation that NO ONE has ever been saved except by faith alone. He uses Abraham as his main example and goes into detail teaching us this.
Yes, in the Old Testament, they looked forward to the Messiah, and we look backwards to the accomplished work of the Messiah, but the method of salvation that God chose has always been the same, and there are commands for evangelism in the old Testament, just as there are in the New Testament.
