According to the Jewish Tanakh (where everything about a Moshiach comes from,) the Moshiach MUST be a literal human descendent from King David. "The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24)" from pt 1.Thus, he cannot be God incarnate.
Conversely, if Yeshua IS God incarnate then He cannot also be the Moshiach.
How do Christians and/or Christianity rectify this problem?
Instead of posting a whole bunch of Scriptures...by the Holy Spirit the simplest answer...by Faith in Christ Jesus and His Second comming will Verify and Fullfill ALL that He siad He would and then they will no more Question...of course this does not Fit the Jewish Theology...but Christ Jesus is not a Theology...Isaiah 55:11~ � So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. �...xo
That'd be fine except for one problem, there's nothing about a second coming for the Moshiach in Judaism. So it'd seem to an outside observer that Christianity made that up to reconcile the disconnect. Got anything else? I ask because I assume with 2 billion followers of Christianity, someone somewhere at some point thought about this and found a solution.
Luke 3:23-38 and Matthew 1:1-16 gives the genealogy of Jesus through Mary and Joseph who were both related to David and Abraham. Jesus was born in the town of Bethlehem to a virgin as prophesied in Micah 5:2 and Isaiah 7:14.
Luke 1:26-35: God sent an angel :angel:Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, "greetings, you are highly favored. The Lord is with you."
The angel said to her, "You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of His father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; His kingdom will never end." {All of which was prophesied in the OT}
"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?" The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the Holy One to be born will be called the Son of God."
Micah 5:2: "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me One who will be Ruler over Israel, whose origins are from old, from ancient times."
Isaiah 9:6,7: " For to us a child is born, to us a Son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over His kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever."
Isaiah 7:14: The Lord Himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a Son and will call Him *IMMANUEL*!!" {Which means in Hebrew "GOD WITH US"!!}
Isaiah 53:5,6: "He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him. and by His wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way, and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all!!"
Hebrews 9:15,26b-28: Christ is the mediator of a **NEW COVENANT** so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant...But now He has APPEARED once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the SACRIFICE of Himself... so Christ was SACRIFICED ONCE to take away the sins of many people, and He will *APPEAR* a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him.
Hebrews 8:8,9,13: God found fault with the people and said {In Exodus 25:40}: The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a **NEW COVENANT**{Read Deut 18:17-19!!} with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will **NOT** be like the covenant I made with their forefathers.....By calling this covenant **NEW**, He made the first one **OBSOLETE**; and what is **OBSOLETE** and aging will soon disappear.� {When all the words of the New Covenant were completed by the Book of Revelation in AD 96!!}
Hebrew 10:8-10: Jesus said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them. Although the law required them to be made. The He {Jesus} said. "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He {Jesus} set aside the first {Covenant} to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus ONCE FOR ALL!!:applause:
Can't use NT Gospels to prove Jesus was the Jewish Moshiach. I didn't realize I had to explain simple logic like that, but it'd be like using the US Constitution to prove America is a nation and so native indians have no claim to the land. OF COURSE the NT upholds Jesus as Moshiach, wha dya expect?
Let me ask ya question Jeff...Are you a Christian ?...a Born Again Believer in Jesus with a Non-Denomination on your Profile or are you possibly a Jew or Messianic ? Cuz if you are a Jew then nothing we say will satisfy your question and if you are Messianic and have Accepted Christ Jesus then you would not be asking this question...Since you state to Prophet he can not use the NT Scriptures it appears as if you will not Accept them as Scripture therefor you do not Accept Christ Jesus as the Messiah...I can post Again all the Prophecies that have been Fullfilled by Christ Jesus...but then you would probably rebutal that He did not Fullfill ALL...which is typical of a Jew/Pharasee/Saducee...xo
Jesus {Yeshua HaMoshiach} fulfilled over 300 OT prophecies and I quoted Isaiah 7:14; Micah 5:2; Isaiah 9:6,7; Deuteronomy 18:17-19; Exodus 25:40 and Isaiah 53 and the NT quotes show that the OT quotes were completely fulfilled.
WERE THE OT SAINTS ALSO WAITING FOR THE ETERNAL HEAVENLY NEW JERUSALEM??
Romans 10:12: �For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile�the same Lord is Lord of all.� Galatians 3:28,29: �There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise!!� Read Ephesians 2:11-22!!
Hebrews 11:9,10,13-16: By faith he {Abraham} made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the City with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. {The Eternal New Jerusalem not an earthly Jerusalem built by man}
All these people were all living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised, they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had the opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country�a **HEAVENLY ONE**. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a City for them {The eternal Heavenly New Jerusalem!}
Hebrews 11:39-40: �These {OT Saints} were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us {NT saints} would they {OT saints} be made perfect!�{Receive New heavenly bodies and the Eternal, Heavenly New Jerusalem}
Galatians 3:29: If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 4:22-26: For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is **ABOVE** is free, and she is our mother!!�:applause::peace::angel:
What I am shouldn't matter. As it happens, I'm a pre-Talmudic tradition Jew (Scripturalist Judaism et al. we use the Tanakh alone as revelation of God's will, not the latter Talmud or other 'commentaries'). But since Christianity depends 100% on Judaism being true, I don't see a conflict with my being here or asking these questions. My intent is not to argue 'ws he, or wasn't he?' but rather to be convinced as you have been that he was.
I left Catholicism and Franciscan seminary because I started asking questions no one wanted to answer.
Jeff: Happy to here you rejected Roman Catholicism. Looks like jumped out of the frying pan into the fire!
WILL ALL ISRAEL BE SAVED BY THE END OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION??
Luke 21:24: Jesus says, �Jerusalem shall be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are complete.� The Times of the Gentiles was from AD 70 to June 7th, 1967 when the Jews again gained complete control of Jerusalem after 1897 years. In 1948 the Jordanian Gentiles destroyed 34 of the 35 Jewish Synagogues in Jerusalem and kicked out almost all the Jews. Obama would like Israel to return to its 1948 borders.
During the Great Tribulation Moses and Elijah will most likely witness miraculously to people in the uttermost parts of the earth in all 6,000 languages. Presently the Bible has been translated into about 2,000 languages from the inspired Greek and Hebrew manuscripts and faith comes from hearing or reading the sword of the spirit which is the Word of God. The Bible still has not been translated into about 4,000 languages and Rev 5:9b and Rev 7:9,13,14 must be completely fulfilled. Surely the courageous tribulation saints will help Moses and Elijah spread God's Word. They will do a fantastic job since according to Rev 7:9,14 there will be a great multitude from EVERY TRIBE AND LANGUAGE who will be �washed in the Blood of the Lamb� during the Great Tribulation.
Rev 6:9-11: When He {Jesus} opened the 5th seal, I saw the souls of those who had been slain {Just like Jesus} because of the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, �How long until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?� The each of them was given a *WHITE ROBE*, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. Rev 7:9,13,14,15a,17a: �After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from *EVERY* NATION, TRIBE, PEOPLE AND LANGUAGE, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb {Jesus}. They were wearing *WHITE ROBES*�Then one of the {24} elders {Rev 4:4} asked me, �These in *WHITE ROBES*�who are they and where did they come from?�� And he said, �These are they who have come out of the Great Tribulation; {Martyrs just like Jesus} they have washed their robes and made them WHITE in the *BLOOD OF THE LAMB* {Jesus}. They are before the throne of God and serve him day and night... The Lamb {Jesus} at the center of the throne will be their Shepherd.� {See Rev 12:11 & Rev 13:8-10}
This passage in Rev 7:9 above shows that the Great Tribulation will be mainly for Christians in *EVERY Gentile nation and not just Jacob�s Jewish trouble which absolutely contradicts the main thesis of the pre-trib fairy tale. Revelation 14:13: Then I heard a voice from heaven say {During the Great Trib}, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them." Rev 12:11: �They {THE TRIBULATION MARTYRS} overcame him {Satan} by the *BLOOD OF THE LAMB* and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.�
Revelation 7:3,4: The angel said, �Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God,� Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the {12} tribes of Israel.
This event occurred just before the land and sea were harmed by the first 6 trumpet plagues in Rev chapters 8 & 9. Also occurring just before the first 6 trumpet plagues will be the scene in heaven above of martyrs from every nation in Rev 7:9-18. So it is completely obvious that the 144,000 Jews did NOT participate in the evangelizing of the Gentiles from every nation in the world. There are many who believe that the 144,000 Jews will then evangelize Jews through out the world and possibly only Jews will be saved during the rest of the Great Tribulation since Gentiles from every nation of the world will already be saved. According to Zechariah 12;10; 13:8,9: Two-thirds of the Jews will be struck down and perish but one-third will call on my name and will say, �The Lord is our God.�
Presently there are approximately 15 million Jews and about 2 % or 30,000 are Christians. During the Great Tribulation 10 million Jews will die and 5 million will be saved which is and additional 4 million 970 thousand if 30 thousand are now Christians.
Romans 11:25-29: I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part **until the full number of Gentiles has come in **{As per Rev 7:9,14 above}. ***AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED***, as it is written: {In Jeremiah 31:33,34} �The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob {Israel}. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.� As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned they are loved on account of the patriarchs {Moses, Abraham, David ,Joseph, Isaiah, Elijah etc etc etc}, for God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. {Read Romans 11:11-32 and Hebrews 11:39-40}
Acts 1:6-8: The Jewish disciples asked Jesus, �Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel??� Jesus said to them: �It is not for you to know the times and dates the Father has set by His own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and to the ends of the earth.!!� Matthew 24:14: Jesus says {During thr Great Tribulation} �This gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to **ALL NATIONS** and **THEN** the **END** will come!�
God also inspired 40 Jewish men to write every Word in God's Word in both the OT and NT. Jesus was 50 % Jewish and is called the King of the Jews 12 times in the NT and the 12 Apostles including Paul were all Jewish who brought the Gospel to the Gentiles in the 1st Century. The Israelites are called Jews 80 times in the OT beginning with the book of Esther about 600 BC and the Israelites are called Jews over 200 times in the NT.
Acts 2:5: �Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.� And on the day of Pentecost 3,000 Jews were saved as per Acts 2:5,14,41. John 4:22b: Jesus says, "Salvation is from the Jews.!" Matthew 2:1,2: Wise men from the East asked, �Where is the One who has been born King of the Jews?� Matthew 27:11: Pilate asked Jesus, �Are you the King of the Jews?� �Yes it is as you say,� Jesus replied!
God said to Abraham, in Genesis 17:8: �The whole land of Canaan I will be give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you.�
Quotes from Obama on May 20th, 2011: �Israel must learn do defend itself **BY ITSELF**!!� �Israel must return to **PRE-1967 BORDERS**!!� Nations from all over the world have heartily agreed with King Obama's 2 statements including the European Union, Russia and the United nations. Obama has also stated that he does not have to abide by the War Powers Act or the Constitution in declaring war thus making Obama a King with the power to make war against anyone he desires as long as he desires!
Quit hijacking my threads with your inaccurate, rambling, convoluted one prophetic. Stay on topic or make your own, not hard. If you don't wanna answer "which version" cause you're embarassed that's fine, but don't then post mindless drivel that has nothing to do with anything in an OP's posting. Did the same exact post in pt 1 and I've reported you for thread hijacking/off topic spamming.
