Thread: What Do These Scripures Mean To Church Christians?
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What Do These Scripures Mean To Church Christians?
Posted : 17 Jul, 2011 08:30 AM
What Do These Scriptures Mean To Church Christians?
Often Christians who are under the influence of preachers who were trained in a theology
by the seminaries will tend to interpret Bible texts almost as though the texts were isolated
from other Bible texts. And their isolated interpretations generally agree with the theology
they have been taught in the churches.
II Peter 1: 21 says "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
II Timothy 3: 16 notes that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
These scriptures say the Holy Spirit inspired what has become scripture. Since the Holy Spirit is God, he knows
what he had men say in the distant past and what he would have them say in the future. For excample, when Paul says
in I Corinthians 15: 52 that the resurrection of those who are saved will be at the last trump, or the last trumpet, the Holy
Spirit knew what John was going to write in the Book of Revelation about the seven trumpets, though Paul would not have known this unless it had been revealed to him by God, because Revelation was written after I Corinthians.
Likewise, the Holy Spirit knew exactly what he had men write in every scripture. So, if men interpret a scripture
as apparently contradicting another scripture, its their interpretation which is wrong. The scriptures inspired by the Holy
Spirit do not contradict one another, though men often interpret them wrongly. This is why Bible teachers, more in the past than
now, taught Christians to interpret one scripture by other scriptures which are relevant to it.
Christians under the influence of a theology sometimes will ignore or agree with one scripture, and then say, in effect, "But over here it says something different," and use that scripture they think says something different to prove their theology.
An important example of this ignoring of a set of scriptures which do not agree with an interpretation in isolation according to a theology is Romans 11: 25-26. The predominant broad way view is that "Israel" in verse 26 must be physical Israel, and therefore "all Israel shall be saved" refers to physical Israel, the physical descendants of Abraham under the Old Covenant.
Part of the problem in the use of scripture to interpret scripture now is that the huge number of different translations confuse many about which version to trust, which is exactly what Satan intended. English translations of the New Testament are either from the Textus Receptus or from the Westcott-Hort Greek text. It might be argued that the NIV is not based on the Westcott-Hort but on the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament. But the Nestle-Aland Greek text is based on Alexandarian Greek texts, such as the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, which were used to create the Westcott-Hort. And within the huge number of
recent translations out of the Westcott-Hort, there are big differences in wording for some verses. Some texts that are in the Textus Receptus and its English offspring translations are not in the Westcott-Hort and its English translations.
In interpeting Romans 11: 25 I just came across an important difference in translations.
The King James Version says "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."
But the New American Standard Bible says "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."
A partial hardening would imply more the idea that physical Israel as a total group of people are partially hardened. The "blindness in part" of the King James does not imply strongly either that the blindness is a partial blindness to the people, or that one group of Israel has been blinded and the other not blinded.
The New Revised Standard Version says "So that you may not claim to be wiser than you are, brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in."
"A hardening has come upon part of Israel" is more of a clear statement that one group of Israel is hardened and another group is not. But all three translations have "until" the fullnss of the Gentiles has come in, rather than "while" the fulness of the Gentiles are coming in.
You can see from this example of the difference between the three translations what part of the problem is in comparing scripture with scripture.
There is a set of New Testament texts that present doctrines which do not agree with the interpretation that "all Israel shall be saved" means that all of physical Israel, the supposed physical descendants of Abraham, will be saved. What do the chuch Christians who follow the theology of John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer, make of these scriptures? What is their interpretration of them, especially of Romans 9: 8, which contradicts the notion that all physical Israel will be saved? Was Paul wrong?
1. Romans 2: 28-29: "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
2. Romans 9: 6-8: "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
3. Galatians 4: 2-26: " Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."
4. Galatians 3: 28-29: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
5. John 10: 16: "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."
6. John 1: 11: " He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
7. Matthew 8: 11-12: "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
8. Romans 11:2-5: " God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."
9. Hebrews 10: 9: "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."
10. I Peter 2: 9: " But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"
11. Acts 15: 7-10, 14-16: "And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9. And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?...13. And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14. Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:(quote of Amos 9:11)."
What Do These Scripures Mean To Church Christians?
Posted : 18 Jul, 2011 05:14 AM
I have not posted this on Facebook. But a Facebook Friend just said:
"The church in general is in disarray because of single verses taken out of context and made as an iron clad rule. If the Holy Spirit is leading us all then we will all be in perfect unity. As it is, in most of us, the dead letter is above the Spirit. A natural man will not be able to discern what is Spiritual."
What Do These Scripures Mean To Church Christians?
Posted : 18 Jul, 2011 06:25 AM
Justin Martyr on "the true spiritual Israel" [6]
Jesus Christ ... is the new law, and the new covenant, and the expectation of those who out of every people wait for the good things of God. For the true spiritual Israel, and the descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ.
John Chrysostom on Galatians 6:15-16 [7]
Observe the power of the Cross, to what a pitch it hath raised him! not only hath it put to death for him all mundane affairs, but hath set him far above the Old Dispensation. What can be comparable to this power? for the Cross hath persuaded him, who was willing to be slain and to slay others for the sake of circumcision, to leave it on a level with uncircumcision, and to seek for things strange and marvellous and above the heavens. This our rule of life he calls "a new creature," both on account of what is past, and of what is to come; of what is past, because our soul, which had grown old with the oldness of sin, hath been all at once renewed by baptism, as if it had been created again. Wherefore we require a new and heavenly rule of life. And of things to come, because both the heaven and the earth, and all the creation, shall with our bodies be translated into incorruption. Tell me not then, he says, of circumcision, which now availeth nothing; (for how shall it appear, when all things have undergone such a change?) but seek the new things of grace. For they who pursue these things shall enjoy peace and amity, and may properly be called by the name of "Israel." While they who hold contrary sentiments, although they be descended from him and bear his appellation, have yet fallen away from all these things, both the relationship and the name itself. But it is in their power to be true Israelites, who keep this rule, who desist from the old ways, and follow after grace.
Martin Luther on Galatians 6:16
Lectures on Galatians, 1519.[8] "Walk" is the same verb that is used above (5:25). "Walk," that is, go, by this rule. By what rule? It is this rule, that they are new creatures in Christ, that they shine with the true righteousness and holiness which come from faith, and that they do not deceive themselves and others with the hypocritical righteousness and holiness which come from the Law. Upon the latter there will be wrath and tribulation, and upon the former will rest peace and mercy. Paul adds the words "upon the Israel of God." He distinguishes this Israel from the Israel after the flesh, just as in 1 Cor. 10:18 he speaks of those who are the Israel of the flesh, not the Israel of God. Therefore peace is upon Gentiles and Jews, provided that they go by the rule of faith and the Spirit.
Lectures on Galatians, 1535.[9] "Upon the Israel of God." Here Paul attacks the false apostles and the Jews, who boasted about their fathers, their election, the Law, etc. (Rom. 9:4-5). It is as though he were saying: "The Israel of God are not the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel but those who, with Abraham the believer (3:9), believe in the promises of God now disclosed in Christ, whether they are Jews or Gentiles."
John Calvin on Galatians 6:16 [10]
Upon the Israel of God. This is an indirect ridicule of the vain boasting of the false apostles, who vaunted of being the descendants of Abraham according to the flesh. There are two classes who bear this name, a pretended Israel, which appears to be so in the sight of men, and the Israel of God. Circumcision was a disguise before men, but regeneration is a truth before God. In a word, he gives the appellation of the Israel of God to those whom he formerly denominated the children of Abraham by faith (Galatians 3:29), and thus includes all believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were united into one church.
William Hendriksen on Galatians 6:16 [11]
Paul continues: 16. And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace (be) upon them and mercy, even upon the Israel of God. According to the preceding context, this rule is the one by which before God only this is of consequence, that a person places his complete trust in Christ crucified, and that, therefore, he regulates his life by this principle. This will mean that his life will be one of gratitude and Christian service out of love for his wonderful Savior. Upon those � all those and only those � who are governed by this rule peace and mercy are pronounced. Peace is the serenity of heart that is the portion of all those who have been justified by faith (Rom. 5:1). In the midst of the storms of life they are safe because they have found shelter in the cleft of the rock. In the day of wrath, wasteness, and desolation God "hides" all those who take refuge in him (Zeph. 1:2 ff.; 2:3; 3:12). See on 1:3. Hence, peace is spiritual wholeness and prosperity. Peace and mercy are inseparable. Had not the mercy of God been shown to his people they would not have enjoyed peace. God's mercy is his love directed toward sinners viewed in their wretchedness and need. See N.T.C. on Philippians, p. 142, for a list of over one hundred Old and New Testament passages in which this divine attribute is described.
So far the interpretation runs smoothly. A difficulty arises because of the last phrase of this verse. That last phrase is: "kai upon the Israel of God." Now, varying with the specific context in which this conjunction kai occurs, it can be rendered: and, and so, also, likewise, even, nevertheless, and yet, but, etc. Sometimes it is best left untranslated. Now when this conjunction is rendered and (as in A.V., A.R.V., N.E.B.), it yields this result, that after having pronounced God's blessing upon all those who place their trust exclusively in Christ Crucified, the apostle pronounces an additional blessing upon "the Israel of God," which is then interpreted to mean "the Jews," or "all such Jews as would in the future be converted to Christ," etc.
Now this interpretation tends to make Paul contradict his whole line of reasoning in this epistle. Over against the Judaizers' perversion of the gospel he has emphasized the fact that "the blessing of Abraham" now rests upon all those, and only those, "who are of faith" (3:9); that all those, and only those, "who belong to Christ" are "heirs according to the promise" (3:29). These are the very people who "walk by the Spirit" (5:16), and "are led by the Spirit" (5:18). Moreover, to make his meaning very clear, the apostle has even called special attention to the fact that God bestows his blessings on all true believers, regardless of nationality, race, social position, or sex: "There can be neither Jew nor Greek; there can be neither slave nor freeman; there can be no male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (3:28). By means of an allegory (4:21-31) he has re-emphasized this truth. And would he now, at the very close of the letter, undo all this by first of all pronouncing a blessing on "as many as" (or: "all") who walk by the rule of glorying in the cross, be they Jew or Gentile by birth, and then pronouncing a blessing upon those who do not (or: do not yet) walk by that rule? I refuse to accept that explanation. Appeals to the well-known "Eighteen petition prayer of the Jews," [12] to the meaning of the word Israel in other New Testament passages, etc., cannot rescue this interpretation. As to the former, Gal. 6:16 must be interpreted in accordance with its own specific context and in the light of the entire argument of this particular epistle. And as to the latter, it is very clear that in his epistles the apostle employs the term Israel in more than one sense. In fact, in the small compass of a single verse (Rom. 9:6) he uses it in two different senses. Each passage in which that term occurs must therefore be explained in the light of its context. Besides, Paul uses the term "the Israel of God" only in the present passage, nowhere else.
What, then, is the solution? In harmony with all of Paul's teaching in this epistle (and see aslo Eph. 2:14-22), and also in harmony with the broad, all-inclusive statement at the beginning of the present passage, where the apostle pronounces God's blessing of peace and mercy upon "as many as" shall walk by this rule, an object from which nothing can be subtracted and to which nothing can be added, it is my firm belief that those many translators and interpreters are right who have decided that kai, as here used, must be rendered even, or (with equal effect) must be left untranslated. Hence, what the apostle says is this: "And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace (be) upon them and mercy, even upon the Israel of God." Cf. Psalm 125:5. Upon all of God's true Israel, Jew or Gentile, all who truly glory in the cross, the blessing is pronounced.
O. Palmer Robertson on the Israel of God [13]
the Israel of GodThe recognition of a distinctive people who are the recipients of God�s redemptive blessings and yet who have a separate existence apart from the church of Jesus Christ creates insuperable theological problems. Jesus Christ has only one body and only one bride, one people that he claims as his own, which is the true Israel of God. This one people is made up of Jews and Gentiles who believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah.
What Do These Scripures Mean To Church Christians?
Posted : 18 Jul, 2011 10:59 AM
Unlike the way I usually write, I wrote this entirely on the CDFF page. When i finished, the system asked me for my user name and password. But when I typed them in and pasted in the reply I had fortunately copied, it apparently posted this on some other thread. I didn't write down what thread that was. I hope the system's posting this on someone's thread does not turn them off.
I like the excerpts from the writings on Justin Martyr, John Chrysostom, Martin Luther and John Calvin who understood what Paul taught about there being two Israels. The Israel of God in Galatians 6: 16 in effect says "...and upon the Israel (which) is of God." In other words the Israel Paul is talking about here is that Israel which is of God. This is consistent with what he says in Romans 9: 8, "...They which are of the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God."
Galatians 6: 16 in the Textus Receptus says "...ton Israel tau Theau." The article "ton" makes this Israel different, as well as "tau" or "of" between Israel and God, "THE Israel OF God."
Paul uses "spiritual" and "spiritually" in a number of verses. He uses "spiritual" in 21 places and "spiritually" in three verses. But he did not choose to use "spiritual" in Galatians 6: 16, or in Romans 11: 26, where he might have written "spiritual Israel" to distinguish it from fleshly Israel. In I Corinthians 10: 18 he says "Behold Israel after the flesh..." to distinguish this Israel from Israel which are the children of the promise (Romans 9: 8) or
Israel (he calls it Jerusalem) "which is above is free, which is the mother of us all," Galatians 4: 26) which he might have called "spiritual Israel."
The quote above from Justin Martyr "Abraham who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God" is something the Pharisees who in Acts 15: 1 insisted that Gentile Christians be circumcised did not understand of accept. Paul deals with the uncircumcision of Abraham when he was called in Romans 4: 10.
What John Chrysostom says is even more important:
"Observe the power of the Cross, to what a pitch it hath raised him! not only hath it put to death for him all mundane affairs, but hath set him far above the Old Dispensation. What can be comparable to this power? for the Cross hath persuaded him, who was willing to be slain and to slay others for the sake of circumcision, to leave it on a level with uncircumcision, and to seek for things strange and marvellous and above the heavens."
What Chrysostom is saying is that the physical Israelite was transformed from a physical being to a spiritual being by believing on Christ and his work on the Cross. That which was only physical before, illustrated by circumcision of the flesh of male Israelites, was transformed or translated into the spiritual by the Cross and on the Day of Pentecost, when tongues of fire appeared on the people Peter addressed, a form of the shining or the transfiguration. The guys who before gloried in being circumcised in the flesh, and were in bondage to that fleshly evidence, now became spiritual and free, and the evidence of that was the tongues of fire on them.
The word "translated" which we tend to think is limited to translating one language into another is used three times in the Bible. First, it is used in Ii Samuel 3:9-10 where the King James Version says "So do God to Abner, and more also, except, as the LORD hath sworn to David, even so I do to him; To translate the kingdom from the house of Saul, and to set up the throne of David over Israel and over Judah, from Dan even to Beer-sheba."
But, for example, the New American Standard Bible has "to transfer the kingdom from the house of Saul and to establish the throne of David over Israel and over Judah."
Then in Colossians 1: 13 Paul says "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son."
But The New American Standard says "For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,"
To me, "translated," when you know it means also to transform, is a more powerful expression than just saying "transfer" or "transferred," which are more mundane expressions.
Hebrews 11: 5 in the King James says God translated Enoch.
John Chrysostom says "the Cross hath persuaded him (the physical Israelite), who was willing to be slain and to slay others for the sake of circumcision, to leave (circumcision)." Circumcision was done at the Cross.
On http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/christian.html0 Laura Jezek says ""The New Testament teaches that we as New Covenant believers are supposed to accept His circumcision, His baptism, His death, and His
resurrection as our propitiation (Col. 2:8-14). The writings of the
Early Church Fathers are filled with references to this. They speak over and over of "giving thanks to our Savior for taking our
circumcision for us, and shedding His innocent blood once for all, so that we'll never have to."
I would like to read the early Church fathers on this topic.
After Christ was circumcised,
the ceremonial law, including circumcision was fulfilled, that is,
completed and afterward circumcision has no meaning as pointing to Christ's sacrifice.
She quotes Galatians 5: 3 "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law" and then says here Paul reasons again that the genitals are no
longer a status symbol. Therefore the only acceptable thing to do with them is to leave them alone the way God created them."
In saying "the genitals are a status symbol' she means that to the
physical Israelites the circumcised status is a symbol of belonging to the chosen people.
She is arguing that Christians should not circumcise, even if they believe it is not done for religious reasons. She notes that ""Cutting a baby without anesthesia is a separate sin all its own. It is hoped by many that in the near future it will be illegal to do so in this country."
On this site it says that Laura Jezek is a freelance writer and
a theological student
To finish up the thoughts on Paul's use of "Israel" in two different ways, for Galatians 6: 16 and Romans 11: 36, Paul leaves it up the reader to decide from the context and from his other writings which Israel he is talking about, especially in Romans 9: 6-8.
What Do These Scripures Mean To Church Christians?
Posted : 18 Jul, 2011 03:41 PM
God Bless You,I wanted to share this because it is really big on my heart,I have been studying for years and years(Greek,every word of the word,Romans)and now that I got all that knowledge God showed me Now I will put it togeather for you so that you can understand here is something he opened up to me and it blew my mind you may know this already but it was great revelation to me.This is what it was 'The old covenant was written in stone(which we know when something is written in stone it will come to pass)The new covenant was written in pure,sinless blood... so when you read the new covent read it as though the words were written in blood... for they are...The pure sinless blood of my Son and My word can not be broken because it is a blood covent,that blew my mind and blessed my socks off!God Bless You,Gil.
