Thread: A Few Onion Layers of False Doctrine in Dispensationalism
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A Few Onion Layers of False Doctrine in Dispensationalism
Posted : 23 Jun, 2011 07:58 AM
Followers of dispensationalism will often say that the falling away or apostasy mentioned in II Thessalonians 2: 3 will occur in the tribulation period. Their implication is that the falling away will began in the tribulation.
Its not that there will be a great falling away at the beginning of the Great Tribulation, because the leavening of the churches has been going on since sometime in the early 20th century. But one has to believe scripture to discern when that leavening began. If you believe scripture then the leavening due to dispensationalism began when that theology began to take over the evangelical denominations in this country and was soon exported to other nations.
There were other false doctrines taught, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists, even back in the 19th century - but these false doctrines didn't take over so many denominations as did dispensationalism starting in about 1890.
Dispensationalism is like an onion; you peel off one layer of false doctrines, only to find another layer of additional ones.
The false doctrine about when the falling away is to occur says it does not begin until the tribulation. If this were true, then God would not have one good reason to bring about the "fire" of Zechariah 13:: 8-9 which is to refine a remnant and bring them out of false doctrines and out of the "church." "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and hat ye receive not of her plagues." I know some will say this applies only to financial and political Babylon, but it also applies to the Babylon of Revelation 17: 1-8, which is false religion, or false Christianity. Its the second beast of Revelation 13: 11-18.
In Matthew 13: 33 Jesus says "The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened." Then in Matthew 16: 11-12 he says "How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."
Paul teaches in I Corinthians 5: 6-7 "Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us;"
The leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees was their teaching of doctrines contrary to those that Christ was teaching. Paul in I Corinthians 5: 6-7 is using leaven, as in putting leaven in bread, as a metaphor for false doctrines. Also, the teaching on leaven by Jesus and Paul indicates that leaven works over time, so that at first a little leaven may not be too evident, but as time goes by this small amount of leaven leads to additional leavening and finally the whole ministry is leavened.
Actually, the leavening would pretty much have to start before the period of the tribulation to be a great falling away at that time. God has not revealed exactly how long the tribulation will last. The seven years somehow deduced from Daniel 9: 25-27 is another onion layer of false doctrine brought to us by those who
kidnapped Christianity. I know there are time spans listed in prophecy, but nowhere does it say these are the entire period of the tribulation. If scripture told us exactly how long the tribulation will last, and gave us a really explict sign to recognize the exact day when the great tribulation is to begin, then we would know the exact day when Christ will appear again. If we claim we have figured out how long the tribulation will last and when it begins, and predict a date for the end of the world and it does not happen, we would be in the same place Harold Camping was in after his May 21, 2011 prediction failed.
A Few Onion Layers of False Doctrine in Dispensationalism
Posted : 23 Jun, 2011 11:20 AM
Actually Camping was a former member of the Christian Reformed Church who believed the the book of Revelation including the Divine time periods mentioned {42 months 1260 days or 3 1/2 times} were just a symbolic fairy tale just like John Calvin who did not believe Revelation was the Word of God. But Camping changed his view and became a pre-tribber believing in a rapture first of all believers and then a 5-month Tribulation before the end of the world.
� Matthew 24:3,9-13:� The disciples asked Jesus, �What will be the sign of your Coming and the end of the age?? Jesus answered�.. {During the Great Tribulation} �Then *YOU* will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and *YOU* will be hated by all nations because of Me.� At that time many will turn away from the Faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of *MOST* will grow cold,{THE GREAT APOSTASY} but he {The Called, Chosen & Faithful-Rev 17:14b} who stands firm to the End will be saved.�
WHAT ARE THE 3 PASSAGES IN GOD'S WORD WHICH SHOW THAT THE GREAT TRIBULATION AND THE REIGN OF 666 WILL LAST EXACTLY 1260 DAYS OR 42 {30-DAY} MONTHS??
**{#1}** Daniel 12:1b,2,7b:� �There will be a time of distress {The Great Tribulation} such as not happened from the beginning of nations until then.� But at that time {The Last Day} your people--*EVERYONE* whose name is found written in the book {Both OT & NT Saints}�will be delivered.� Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt�It will be for a time. times and half a time {Which is also 1260 days as per Rev 12:6,14, or 42� {30-day} months as per Rev 13:5} *ALL* these things will be *COMPLETED.��
**{#2}**�Rev 13:5,7: The beast will be given a mouth to utter blasphemies and to exercise his authority for 42 {30-day} months {Not 7 years}�He will be given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. COMPARE WITH
**{#3}**Dan 7:25: �He will speak against the Most High and oppress His saints.� The saints will be handed over to him for time {12 months}, times {24 months} and 1/2 a time {6 months}. {Not 7 years}
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3,8,9: Concerning the doming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him,we ask you,brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come, until the rebellion {Falling Away or Apostasy} occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction...And the the lawless one will be revealed {See Rev 13:5-8}, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and the splendor of His coming {On the Last Day of the Great Tribulation--See Rev 17:14; 19:19,20} The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles , signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing."(See Rev 13:13-17}
"Historic premillennialism draws its name from the fact that the early Church Fathers (e.g. Ireneaus [140�203], who as a disciple of Polycarp, who had been a disciple of the Apostle John, Justin Martyr [100�165], and Papias [80�155]) held to this theology. Historic premillennialism was a popular view amongst Protestant Christians until the rise of dispensationalism in the 19th and 20th centuries. Proponents of historic premillennialism include Baptists John Gill, Charles Spurgeon,, Benjamin Wills Newton, a contemporary and fierce theological rival to John Nelson Darby the father of dispensationalism, George Eldon Ladd, Clarence Bass and Presbyterians Francis Schaeffer, Gordon Clark,and James Montgomery Boice."
wikipedia is not the best of sites, but this is an accurate brief summary of historic premillennialism.
Historic premillennialism, however, did not replace Calvinist and orthodox Lutheran amillinnialism, the view that there is to be no 1,000 year rule of Christ apparently on a new earth, or on the earth. Historic premillennialism taught that Christ would appear at the end of the tribulation, did not teach a pre-trib rapture, and did believe in the 1,000 year millennialism.
Francis Schaeffer, who is listed above as a historic premillennialist, belonged to a small denomination, the Reformed Presbyterian Church, Evangelical Synod, a forerunner of the Presbyterian Church in America, an evangelical denomination. I corresponded with him in 1983-84 when he was still in Switzerland. He had broad interests for a Calvinist. I read most of his books and do not remember him focusing on five point Calvinism, nor did he deal much with end time Bible prophecy of any theological bent.
A Few Onion Layers of False Doctrine in Dispensationalism
Posted : 23 Jun, 2011 11:52 AM
"{On the Last Day of the Great Tribulation--See Rev 17:14; 19:19,20} The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles , signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing."(See Rev 13:13-17}"
Where did you get the idea that what is described in Revelation 17: 14, 19:19-20 and 13: 13-17 occur on the last day of the tribulation? Is this something one of the celebrity dispensationalist writers said - or something you made up yourself. Whether you mean the literal last day or metaphorically toward the end of the tribulation, there is nothing in these scriptures that points to this idea on timing, which is a subject one does not want to be specific or exact about, or he will end up like Mr. Camping..
Revelation 13: 13-17 is a large part of the text on the second beast of Revelation 13, the false prophets, called THE false prophet. This prophecy is not limited to the period of the tribulation, since false prophets come on the Christian scene before the tribulation, and may be more powerful during it. Again, how do we know when the tribulation begins? How do we know it does not come on gradually, and may be beginning? Christ mentions in Luke 21: 11 great earthquakes in diverse places, famine, or food shortages, pestilences, or disease, and in Matthew 24: 11 many false prophets. The massive flooding of U.S. crop lands in late spring will cause some food shortages later this year. Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are on different versions of what is called the Olivet discourse by Jesus Christ. because this is what he said, it takes predominance over metaphoric prophecy in the Book of Revelation.
A Few Onion Layers of False Doctrine in Dispensationalism
Posted : 23 Jun, 2011 11:57 AM
�IS THE 1,000 YEAR FIRST RESURRECTION IN REVELATION 20:4-6 FOR THE 24 ELDERS ON THRONES AND MARTYRS ONLY??
Jesus promised to 12 Apostles who followed Him {Including Paul?} that they would be given 12 THRONES and the authority to JUDGE in Matthew 19:28 & Luke 22:30. In Revelation 4:4 Before the beginning of the Great Tribulation John saw exactly 24 thrones surrounding God's Throne in Heaven. The other 12 thrones were most likely given to 12 prominent OT Elders such as Abraham, Joseph and Isaiah. One of these 24 Elders speaks in Rev 7:13-17 and after the 7TH angel sounds the 7TH and Last Trumpet in Rev 11:15 ONLY the 24 Elders state in Rev 11:16-18: �The time has come for JUDGING the dead and for rewarding your saints.�
��It is completely obvious that the 1,000 year reign mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6 is for 24 ELDERS on Thrones and MARTYRS ONLY according to God's Word in Revelation 20:4,5b,6a: "I saw Thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to JUDGE and I saw the SOULS of those who had been beheaded {Or martyred} because of their testimony for Jesus {NT Martyrs} and because of the Word of God {OT Martyrs}. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands {Tribulation Martyrs}. THEY {THE 24 ELDERS & MARTYRS} came to life and reigned with Christ for 1,000 years... This is the FIRST RESURRECTION... Blessed and holy are those who have part in the FIRST RESURRECTION.
Rev 20:5a: �The rest of the dead {Those saints who are not martyrs or the 24 Elders on Thrones} did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ENDED.� Which, of course, would be the SECOND RESURRECTION at the 2nd Coming of Jesus. There are only TWO RESURRECTIONS for all saints mentioned in Rev 20:4-6: The FIRST RESURRECTION is for Martyrs and the 24 Elders only and INCLUDES the Tribulation Martyrs. And therefore the SECOND RESURRECTION must come on the Last Day of the Great Tribulation and must include all saints {Both OT & NT} who are not martyrs or the 24 Elders on thrones.
The Heavenly rewards for the faithful and courageous *MARTYRS* is one of the most important central themes in the book of Revelation. For they will reign with Jesus in Heaven during the 1,000 years before His 2nd Coming; and according to Revelation 7:14-17: They are before the Throne of God and God will spread His tent over them. They will receive White Robes washed in the blood of the Lamb. Never again will they hunger or thirst and God Himself will wipe every tear from their eyes. Jesus will be their Shepherd and will lead them to springs of Living Water.
FOR EXAMPLE: Let us suppose that the SECOND RESURRECTION takes place on December 2nd, 2014; then the continuous 1,000 year FIRST RESURRECTION for MARTYRS AND 24 ELDERS ONLY would take place from December 2nd, AD 1014 to November 25th, 2014. The 24 Elders and all of the OT & NT saints martyred before December 2nd, 1014 were awakened to reign with Jesus in Heaven and every Martyr martyred after December 2nd, 1014 were and will be immediately awakened to reign with Jesus in the continuous 1,000 year FIRST RESURRECTION to be completed on December 2nd, 2014 at the SECOND RESURRECTION when "The rest of the dead come to life when the thousand years are ENDED." {Rev 20:5a}
Rev 20:4b �I saw the *SOULS of those who had been martyred because of their testimony for Jesus... they came to life and reigned with Christ for 1,000 years. The Martyrs SOULS will only get their New Heavenly bodies when the 1,000 years are ENDED at the 2nd Coming of Jesus.
This seems to contradict John 6:40: Jesus says, �EVERYONE who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.�
However, the LAST DAY RESURRECTION could last 1,000 years for in 2 Pet 3:8 we read: �With the Lord a DAY is like 1,000 years, and 1,000 years are like a DAY!!
A Few Onion Layers of False Doctrine in Dispensationalism
Posted : 24 Jun, 2011 05:52 AM
On http://www.scionofzion.com/revisers.htm
Dave MacPherson makes a number of statements about the origins of separation theology..
MacPherson says "John Walvoord truthfully viewed as one of the "early" pretribs, has also claimed that Darby first "understood" pretrib in either late 1826 or early 1827, and that Darby based his earliest development primarily on the "distinction" between the
"church" and "Israel" which, he said, would necessitate a separation between both groups that only a pretrib rapture could attain."
John Darby (1800-1882) said that the dispensation of law ended at the cross when the dispensation of grace began. But then when the seven year dispensationalist tribulation period begins, another dispensation of law begins - so proposed Darby. This created a problem for Darby's theory. How could another dispensation of law go on when the Church was still on earth? He thought that in the dispensation of law during the tribulation, God would be dealing with the Jews. Would the church in the
tribulation return to be under the law? The solution was that Darby postulated that before the events of the tribulation began and the one man dispensationalist Anti-Christ appeared, the church would be raptured off the earth. With the church gone, God would then turned to deal with the Jews during the tribulation. This point of Darby's theory may be the origin of the claim that the Book of Revelation is only for the Jews, since only they of God's people will be on earth in the tribulation.
If the church is raptured off the earth, leaving the Jews, what happens to the few Jews who have accepted Christ? Darby and later dispensationalists do not seem to deal with Messianic Jews, or with the vast majority of Jews who have rejected Christ entirely.
Darby proposed a radical separation between the church and the Jews, and apparently then said that
when a Jew comes to believe in Christ he becomes part of the church and is no longer part of Israel.
Of course, the messianic Jews would tend to reject this idea, wanting to be followers of Messiah and still be part of Israel.
MacPherson goes on to say that
"Not until 1839 ("Notes on the Revelation") did Darby have clear pretrib teaching! Basing it on Rev. 12:5's "man child" who was "caught up," he wrote: "If we apply it to the saints, who overcome here...then we find that...they are caught up out of his [the dragon's] way....; and the trial and persecution fall on those who are left here----upon the woman."
Note: Manuel or Emmanuel Lacunza, 1731-1801, was a Jesuit priest who wrote The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty (1790). Supposedly Lacunza wrote that before Christ appeared the second time there would be a general apostasy of the Catholic Church which would make it part of the Anti-christ. What is important also is that Lacunza'a book was based upon a futurist interpretation of Bible prophecy. According to http://www.theologue.org/Theory-JPEby.html Lacunza the Jesuit also claimed that Jesus will return return twice, and on his first return return He "raptures" the Church so they can escape the reign of the "future antichrist." This interpretation of a future Anti-Christ as one man was apparently meant to steer the Protestants away from saying the Pope was the present Anti-Christ.
Edward Irving, an associate of John Darby and the English Plymouth Brethren, discovered Lacunza's book and was influenced by it. He translated it into English, and it was published in 1827.
Dave MacPhearson wrote several books, such as The Rapture Plot, and The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin, The Incredible Coverup, and The Three R�s: Rapture, Revisionism and Robbery. Pre-tribulation Rapturism from 1830 to Hal Lindsey. The last book is, in part, about the many celebrity dispensationalists who plagiarized the writings of other writers.
On one site about MacPhearson, it quotes Martin Luther as saying "The book of Revelation] is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future, and especially of tribulations and disasters for the Church..." (Works of Martin Luther, VI, p. 481).
Somebody who follows dispensationalism on CDFF claims that Martin Luther rejected the Book of Revelation.
Here is an interesting quote on the same site from Calvin: John Calvin (1509-1564): "...we ought to follow in our inquiries after Antichrist, especially where such pride proceeds to a public desolation of the church" (Institutes, Vol. 2, p. 411).
Calvin had some insight into end time prophecy, in spite of his amillennialism. he understood that in the end times there will come a desolation of the "church." Yet now his followers in the "church" that is in desolation would defend it along with the dispensationalists against the Remnant outside in the wilderness.
OK I want to go back to Dave MacPhearson. Here is what Joe Ortiz said on Facebook in late May:
"Joe Ortiz
We need your prayers for my dear friend and fellow author, Dave MacPherson. He and his wife are right in the middle of a major storm in Kansas and their car is in a ditch and cannot get it out. They are safe but the storm is headed straight to a little town in Kansas where they are holed up! Please keep them in your prayers.
5 hours ago "
Joe Ortiz They are being sheltered up in a small town library of about 900 people with a group of people, storm headed their direction.
Yes, Bernard, that same Dave MacPherson. He told me he is humbled by the response, and so am I. Love you folks, mucho!"
Dave MacPhearson and his wife got back home safely and some of Joe's Facebook Friends sent them money. Dave lives on or near the Solomon River in north central Kansas which flooded in May - and he is not young anymore.
A Few Onion Layers of False Doctrine in Dispensationalism
Posted : 24 Jun, 2011 02:15 PM
Halfback has stated:
Calvin had some insight into end time prophecy, in spite of his amillennialism. he understood that in the end times there will come a desolation of the "church." Yet now his followers in the "church" that is in desolation would defend it along with the dispensationalists against the Remnant outside in the wilderness.
Actually John Calvin wrote an Institute on every book of the Bible EXCEPT Revelation and stated that he believes that the book of Revelation has no spiritual value and is not part of the Word of God!
I certainly agree with Halfback that the pre-trib dispensationalism of John Darby is very dangerous.
When I went to Calvin College {The Christian Reformed College}I heard hundreds of sermons and never even heard one sermon on the book of Revelation. Christian Reformed ministers will never admit that they don't believe Revelation is part of God's Word since it is now included in all Protestant Bibles.
Rev 22:16,18,19: Jesus says, �I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give *YOU* {The Greek for YOU is plural} this testimony {ALL OF REVELATION} *FOR* the CHURCHES.� This contradicts the ridiculous pre-trib idea that Revelation, chapters 4-19, was not written *FOR* the CHURCHES! The word �CHURCH�is also not mentioned in 9 books of the NT: John, Mark, Luke, 2 Tim, 1 John, 2 John, 1 Peter, 2 Peter and Jude; and is not mentioned in the first 15 chapters of Romans and yet every word in all these NT books are �FOR THE CHURCHES�..... �I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book.� If anyone *ADDS* anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.� And if anyone *TAKES WORDS AWAY* from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city which are described in this book.�
A Few Onion Layers of False Doctrine in Dispensationalism
Posted : 24 Jun, 2011 06:09 PM
"I certainly agree with Halfback that the pre-trib dispensationalism of John Darby is very dangerous."
By "pre-trib dispensationalism" prophetic774 must mean the dispensationalist pre-trib rapture of the "church."
But the pre-trib rapture is only one part of dispensationalist theology. There is a lot more to that theology.
The big problem with dispensationalism is that it confuses the identity of the believer in Christ.
The dispensationalists say God has two peoples, the Jews and the "church," with whom he deals in different ways, not recognizing that as Hebrews 10: 9 says Christ did away with the first covenant so he could establish the second covenant, and this changfe applies to the Jews as well as the Gentiles.
Dispensationalism contradicts Christ when he says in John 10: 16 "...there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." They also do not seem to understand John 3: 1-6, since there Nicodemus, a Pharisee was told by Christ that to enter into the kingdom (under the New Covenant) everyone must be born again. God transformed physical Israel into Israel born again in Christ.
God changed Israel from a physical group, or really a family, into a spiritual family at the Cross and on the Day of Pentecost.
Because Israel was first God's family, all descended from Abraham (though Gentiles could be brought in), Christ first offered salvation to the physical Israelites. When most of the physical Israelites rejected it, Peter was told to include the Gentiles in Acts 10 when God had him bring the Gospel to Cornelius, a Gentile. Soon Paul the Pharisee had a very unusual encounter with the risen Christ on the road to Damascus where Paul was transformed and made the Apostle to the Gentiles.
Catholics say their "church" replaced Israel. The Israel-First crowd, the dispensationalists, teach that the "church" cannot replace Israel, for God's promises will eventually be fulfilled, and all Israel will be saved. Top dispensationalists the "church" is a new group they claim belonging to God, and for this they have not authority in scripture. Because ekklesia is translated as "church" is not that authority. Because an ekklesia is just a meeting, an assembly, a congregation. In thinking "the assembly" is now one of God's two peoples the dispensationalists have made a big mistake.
"I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity." Luke 13: 27. Christ is not saying he does not know those who live in certain places, but that he does not know them because of where they have positioned themselves in their doctrines. If they - the dispensationalistgs - reject their birthright as Israel born again in him, and give it to the unsaved physical Israelites, he may just
accept their decision.
The Calvinists, or the orthodox Calvinists among them, say, no, the "church" became Israel. This is the compromise of the dialectic, the opposition between the dispensationalists and the Calvinists - that there exists a body of followers of Christ called the "church." Yet the Calvinists, or most of them, will defend the "church" now in the end times, and will not agree with the Remnant that there is no group belonging to God different from Israel, but this Israel is the one reborn in Jesus Christ, not the one that Paul in Romans 9:8 says are "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God. The difference now between the orthodox Calvinists and the Remnant is one of there being an entity called the "church," which is a word translated from ekklesia, just an assembly of believers.
