Here it says " The Archbishop of Canterbury has warned that there are extreme forces at work that have turned the Arab Spring into a "very anxious time" for Christians.
Dr Rowan Williams told the BBC that the vacuum left by the end of autocratic regimes was being filled by extremists.
He claimed there had been more killings of Christians and burnings of churches in Egypt than people were aware of.
Life was unsustainable for Christians in northern Iraq, and tensions in Syria were nearing breaking point, he added. There have been extremist atrocities already, especially in Egypt," he said."
But the Scriptures do not emphasize a mass martyrdom of Christians at the hands of a rival religion. Instead, some predict that Christians will be persecuted and even killed by the Christian religious establishment itself.
John 16: 2 says that "They shall put you out of the
synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth
you will think that he doeth God service,"
Aposunagogous here is from Strong's number 656, meaning,
"excommunicated, put out of the synagogue.
Luke 21: 16 says: "And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and
brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they
cause to be put to death." "Some" has been added to the King James
English in Luke 21: 16, because the Greek word "tis", or "men",
meaning some is not in the Greek Textus Receptus, from which the KJV
is translated.
"And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates,
and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or
what ye shall say:" Luke 12: 11
The reference to synagogues is not limited to Jewish synagogues.
Synagogues is Strong's number 4864, meaning "an assemblage of
persons,
a Jewish synagogue, by analogy, a Christian church, assembly,
congregation, synagogue." Sunagoge in the Greek, or synagogue,
I Thessalonians 1: 14-15 and the Martyrdom of Christians
Posted : 20 Jun, 2011 02:43 PM
WILL THE COURAGEOUS TRIBULATION SAINTS SUFFER THE WRATH OF GOD??
God has always allowed His people to suffer tribulation and trials because they purify and perfect their faith and will gain countless eternal rewards when Jesus Christ is *REVEALED. There are over 40,000 saints martyred every year and the main culprit is no longer just Islam and the RC Church. Millions of saints were martyred by the Communist atheist countries after 1917 in Russia and after 1948 in China and then in North Korea and Vietnam. Many more millions were killed by Japan 1937-1945 and by the Fascists in Italy and Germany 1922-1945.
Romans 8:35-37: �Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?... For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered. No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us!� I Peter 1:6-8:���In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is *REVEALED.��
I Peter 2:20b,21: �But if you suffer for doing good and endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow IN HIS STEPS.� I Peter 4:12,13: �Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But REJOICE that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when His glory is *REVEALED!� Rev 2:10: Jesus says, �Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the Crown of Life.� Read other persecution verses: Matthew 5:10-12; Romans 5:3; Heb 13:35-40; 2 Tim 3:12; 2 Cor 1:7-10; I Thess 3:3,4; Phil 1:29; Phil 3:10; Rev 12:11; Rev 13:9,10 & Rev 14:13.
������ The courageous and faithful Tribulation saints will *NOT* be hurt by God�s *WRATH* as shown in Rev 14:9-11; 15:1,7; 16:1,19; or in any of the 7 trumpet or 7 bowl plagues as explained in Rev 9:4,20,21 and Rev 16:2,4-6,9,10,21; or in any of the plagues of God�s 2 witnesses as per Rev 11:6,10; or in *ETERNAL HELL*: Rev 14:9-11: �If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he will drink of the wine of God�s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of *HIS WRATH*.� He will be tormented with burning sulfur and the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever.�
The pre-tribs often confuse the wrath of God with the persecution from the anti-christ. They are not the same thing. The wrath of God is intended for the ungodly and will be poured upon them and them only. The Lord knows His target and He never misses. Jesus warned in Matthew 10:28, �And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.�
In Rev 18:1-24 we read about the plagues that will destroy the headquarters of 666 during the Great Tribulation. This evil city on 7 hills {See Rev 17:9} is called �Babylon� which Peter implied was the nickname for Rome in 2 Peter 5:13. In Rev 18:4 a voice from Heaven will order God's saints to stay away from Babylon {Rome-That great seaport-Rev 18:17-19} so that they will not participate in her sins or be hurt by God's wrath which will completely destroy Rome with many horrific plagues. There are 260 verses from Revelation chapters 6 thru 20 and 128 of these verses or 49% tell of the wrath of God to unbelievers, 666, his False Prophet and Rome.
However, not even one of these verses tells of any wrath of God toward His courageous Tribulation saints. Even pre-tribbers and mid-tribbers reluctantly agree that believers during the Great Tribulation will be exempt from the wrath of God.
I Thessalonians 1: 14-15 and the Martyrdom of Christians
Posted : 20 Jun, 2011 06:16 PM
prophetic774 says "The courageous and faithful Tribulation saints will *NOT* be hurt by God�s *WRATH* as shown in Rev 14:9-11; 15:1,7; 16:1,19; or in any of the 7 trumpet or 7 bowl plagues as explained in Rev 9:4,20,21 and Rev 16:2,4-6,9,10,21; or in any of the plagues of God�s 2 witnesses as per Rev 11:6,10; or in *ETERNAL HELL*: Rev 14:9-11: �
You changed the topic.
The topic is the martyrs of Jesus. Revelation 6: 9-11 talks about these martyrs.
You have said you do not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture of the dispensationalist "church." But you are following other
interpretations that come out of dispensationalism.
Who are the "courageous and faithful Tribulation saints?'
Where does it say they will not be hurt by the events of the tribulation? I Thessalonians 5: 9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."
is often used by dispensationalists to argue that God will not put the dispensationalist "church" through the tribulation.
Very often one scripture cannot be used independently of other scriptures to put forward a doctrine. Those who are saved and are wheat in the parable of the wheat and the tares
of Matthew 13: 24-30 are appointed to salvation by Jesus Christ. And Christ says in Luke 13: 26-28 "Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."
In saying "I know you not whence ye are" does not mean he does not know them where they live geographically; but he means he does not know them
where they are in their beliefs, where they have positioned themselves in their doctrines, which reject his truth.
The "courageous and faithful Tribulation saints" sound like the Remnant of Israel as seen in Zephaniah 3: 12-13, or the 144,000 of Revelation
7: 3-8 and Revelation 14: 1-5. In both of these texts the traits of these small groups are described. Of course, dispensationalism insists that
"Israel" must always be the Jews, that Israel which Paul in Romans 9: 8 says"...They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God..."
And this theology says the 144,000 are all male virgin Jews, and since Paul says in Galatians 3: 28 that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile), then
the 144,000 must be made up of "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God."
No, other than a small remnant and what is in metaphor called the man child in Revelation 12: 13, the New Testament speaks of a great
apostasy in the end times and during the tribulation, as shown by the following texts:
Matthew 24: 9-12 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
One point the dispensationalists miss which is important is that Jesus Christ here says MANY false prophets shall rise, not just one
anti-Christ, or one False Prophet. The texts on anti-Christ in I John do not mention one man as THE anti-Christ in the end time, but says there are now many anti-Christs and that there is
a spirit of anti-Christ. Though Paul in II Thessalonians 2: 3 talks about the man of sin, as though it is one man, he is really pointing to many false prophets as Christ said. The second
beast of Revelation 13: 11-18 is made up of many false prophets, again as Christ said. What Christ said is predominant, though really Paul in II Thessalonians 2:3 and John in Revelation 13 do not
necessarily contradict Christ. Its just that we should interpret what John and Paul said in light of what Christ said.
II Thessalonians 2: 3 says "Let no man deceive you by any means: for
that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and
that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
I Timothy 4: 1-2 says "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the
latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing
spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2.Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a
hot iron;"
II Timothy 4: 3-4 says "For the time will come when they will not
endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to
themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4.And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be
turned unto fables."
Then, II Peter 2: 1-3 says "But there were false prophets also among
the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who
privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that
bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the
way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make
merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not,
I Thessalonians 1: 14-15 and the Martyrdom of Christians
Posted : 20 Jun, 2011 06:42 PM
Actually Luther and Calvin who you and the Christian Reformed church follow did not believe that Revelation is part of the Word of God and Calvin wrote an Institute on every book of the Bible except Revelation and said he did not believe that the book of Revelation had any spiritual value.
I went to Calvin College the Christian Reformed College and have heard hundreds of Christian Reformed sermons and never once did I hear a sermon on Revelation. The Christian Reformed ministers will never admit they don't believe that Revelation is part of God's Word since it is now included in all the Protestant Bible Versions. So they make Revelation into a symbolic fairy tale that you can interpret any way your little old heart desires and they call anyone who interprets Revelation literally as a Satanic dispensationalist.
I do not believe in the dispensationalist rapture fairy tale and believe the glorious resurrection of our Lord Jesus will occur on the Last Day of the 1260-day Tribulation just as the Bible and Jesus, John, Paul and Daniel teaches.
Rev 6:9-11: When He {Jesus} opened the 5th seal, I saw the souls of those who had been slain {Just like Jesus} because of the testimony they had maintained.� They called out in a loud voice, �How long until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?�� The each of them was given a *WHITE ROBE*, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
Rev 7:9,13,14,15a,17a:� �After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from *EVERY* NATION, TRIBE, PEOPLE� AND LANGUAGE, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb {Jesus}.� They were wearing *WHITE ROBES*�Then one of the {24} elders {Rev 4:4} asked me, �These in *WHITE ROBES*�who are they and where did they come from?�� And he said, �These are they who have come out of the Great Tribulation; {Martyrs just like Jesus} they have washed their robes and made them WHITE in the *BLOOD OF THE LAMB* {Jesus}. They are before the throne of God and serve him day and night... The Lamb {Jesus} at the center of the throne will be their Shepherd.� Revelation 7:9 above shows that the Great Tribulation will be mainly for Christians in **EVERY GENTILE** nation and not just **JACOB�S TROUBLE** which absolutely contradicts the main thesis of the pre-trib fairy tale.
Rev 12:11: �They {THE TRIBULATION MARTYRS} overcame him {Satan} by the *BLOOD OF THE LAMB* and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.�
Rev 12:11 and Rev 7:14b above contradict the belief that the tribulation saints will be saved by **WORKS ALONE** and will not be saved by the **BLOOD OF THE LAMB**. like the present church saints; and will not be in the **LAMB�S BOOK OF LIFE**.� However, in Revelation 13:8 we read: �All inhabitants of the earth will worship the Beast {666}�.*ALL* whose names have not been written in the **LAMB�S BOOK OF LIFE**!� Which absolutely confirms that the Tribulation saints who do not worship the Beast will be in the **LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE**!!
I Thessalonians 1: 14-15 and the Martyrdom of Christians
Posted : 21 Jun, 2011 03:49 AM
"Actually Luther and Calvin who you and the Christian Reformed church follow did not believe that Revelation is part of the Word of God and Calvin wrote an Institute on every book of the Bible except Revelation and said he did not believe that the book of Revelation had any spiritual value."
Calvinism is a theology, just as dispensationalism is a theology. The end time "church" for the most part follows either dispensationalism or Calvinism, although dispensationalism has captured the majority of denominations.
Man made theology is false doctrine, especially for dispensationalism.
One of the people who has dealt with the problem of the dispensationalist "church" among those Christians who stay outside of the "church" has said that the Calvinists will in the tribulation follow the dispensationalist "church" into Jewish supremacy - because the Calvinists will defend the "church." The Calvinists will defend the "church" including the dispensationalist "church" against any Christians who remain outside of it in the wilderness. Why not try to follow the Bible, rather than conform to any theology?
The reason dispensationalists do not want to acknowledge the scriptures predicting that the "church" will cause some Christians to be persecuted and put to death is because the dispensationalists have taken over so much of the "church" that to acknowledge the "church" would cause Christians to be killed is saying they, the dispensationalists, are to do this.
Another statement by prophetic: "However, in Revelation 13:8 we read: �All inhabitants of the earth will worship the Beast {666}�.*ALL* whose names have not been written in the **LAMB�S BOOK OF LIFE**!� Which absolutely confirms that the Tribulation saints who do not worship the Beast will be in the **LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE**!! "
Which beast of revelation 13 is worshipped? Revelation 13: 12 says "He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed
"He" is the second beast of Revelation 13: 11-18, the false prophets. The first beast whose deadly wound was healed is found in Revelation 13: 3. The deadly wound happened in 70 AD when the Romans destroyed much of Jerusalem, and the deadly wound was healed when Israel became a nation in 1948.
The false prophets are causing "the earth and them that dwell therein" to worship the nation of Israel, as John Hagee and Christians United For Israel are doing. What you are saying that the "tribulation saints who do not worship the Beast will be in the Lamb's Book of Life" is true. But you don't know what beast is worshipped. Revelation 13: 3 says there is more than one head to the first beast, the government beast.
A dispensationalist would not agree that a part of the first beast is the Little Horn, the nation of Israel.
I Thessalonians 1: 14-15 and the Martyrdom of Christians
Posted : 21 Jun, 2011 07:53 AM
prophetic774
Over 1,000 Posts (1,475)
Winter Haven, FL
Luke 21:24: Jesus says, �Jerusalem shall be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are complete.� The Times of the Gentiles was from AD 70 to June 7th, 1967. The Jordanian Gentiles took control of Jerusalem in 1948 and destroyed 34 of the 35 Jewish Synagogues and booted out almost all the Jews from Jerusalem. Obama would like Israel to go back to their 1948 borders.
During the Great Tribulation Moses and Elijah will most likely witness miraculously to people in the uttermost parts of the earth in all 6,000 languages. Presently the Bible has been translated into about 2,000 languages from the inspired Greek and Hebrew manuscripts and faith comes from hearing or reading the sword of the spirit which is the Word of God.
The Bible still has not been translated into about 4,000 languages and Rev 5:9b and Rev 7:9,13,14 must be completely fulfilled. Surely the courageous tribulation saints will help Moses and Elijah spread God's Word. They will do a fantastic job since according to Rev 7:9,14 there will be a great multitude from EVERY TRIBE AND LANGUAGE who will be �washed in the Blood of the Lamb� during the Great Tribulation.
Rev 6:9-11: When He {Jesus} opened the 5th seal, I saw the souls of those who had been slain {Just like Jesus} because of the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, �How long until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?� The each of them was given a *WHITE ROBE*, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. Rev 7:9,13,14,15a,17a:
�After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from *EVERY* NATION, TRIBE, PEOPLE AND LANGUAGE, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb {Jesus}. They were wearing *WHITE ROBES*�Then one of the {24} elders {Rev 4:4} asked me, �These in *WHITE ROBES*�who are they and where did they come from?�� And he said, �These are they who have come out of the Great Tribulation; {Martyrs just like Jesus} they have washed their robes and made them WHITE in the *BLOOD OF THE LAMB* {Jesus}. They are before the throne of God and serve him day and night... The Lamb {Jesus} at the center of the throne will be their Shepherd.� {See Rev 12:11 & Rev 13:8-10}
This passage in Rev 7:9 above shows that the Great Tribulation will be mainly for Christians in *EVERY Gentile nation and not just Jacob�s Jewish trouble which absolutely contradicts the main thesis of the pre-trib fairy tale. Revelation 14:13: Then I heard a voice from heaven say {During the Great Trib}, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."
Rev 12:11: �They {THE TRIBULATION MARTYRS} overcame him {Satan} by the *BLOOD OF THE LAMB* and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.�
Revelation 7:3,4: The angel said, �Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God,� Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the {12} tribes of Israel.
This event occurred just before the land and sea were harmed by the first 6 trumpet plagues in Rev chapters 8 & 9. Also occurring just before the first 6 trumpet plagues will be the scene in heaven above of martyrs from every nation in Rev 7:9-18. So it is completely obvious that the 144,000 Jews did NOT participate in the evangelizing of the Gentiles from every nation in the world.
There are many who believe that the 144,000 Jews will then evangelize Jews through out the world and possibly only Jews will be saved during the rest of the Great Tribulation since Gentiles from every nation of the world will already be saved. According to Zechariah 12;10; 13:8,9: Two-thirds of the Jews will be struck down and perish but one-third will call on my name and will say, �The Lord is our God.�
Presently there are approximately 15 million Jews and about 2 % or 30,000 are Christians. During the Great Tribulation 10 million Jews will die and 5 million will be saved which is an additional 4 million 970 thousand {4,970,000}if 30 thousand are now Christians.
Romans 11:25-29: I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in {As per Rev 7:9,14 above}. And so **ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED**, as it is written: {In Jeremiah 31:33,34} �The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob {Israel}. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.� As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned they are loved on account of the patriarchs {Moses, Abraham, David ,Joseph, Isaiah, Elijah etc etc etc}, for God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. {Read Romans 11:11-32 and Hebrews 11:39,40}
God also inspired 40 Jewish men to write every Word in God's Word in both the OT and NT. Jesus was 50 % Jewish and is called the King of the Jews 12 times in the NT and the 12 Apostles including Paul were all Jewish who brought the Gospel to the Gentiles in the 1st Century. The Israelites are called Jews 80 times in the OT beginning with the book of Esther about 600 BC and the Israelites are called Jews over 200 times in the NT.
Acts 2:5: �Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.� And on the day of Pentecost 3,000 Jews were saved as per Acts 2:5,14,41. John 4:22b: Jesus says, "Salvation is from the Jews.!" Matthew 2:1,2: Wise men from the East asked, �Where is the One who has been born King of the Jews?� Matthew 27:11: Pilate asked Jesus, �Are you the King of the Jews?� �Yes it is as you say,� Jesus replied!
God said to Abraham, in Genesis 17:8: �The whole land of Canaan I will be give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you.�
Quotes from Obama on May 20th, 2011: �Israel must learn do defend itself **BY ITSELF**!!� �Israel must return to **PRE-1967 BORDERS**!!� Nations from all over the world have heartily agreed with King Obama's 2 statements including the European Union, Russia and the United nations. Obama has also stated that he does not have to abide by the War Powers Act or the Constitution in declaring war thus making Obama a King with the power to make war against anyone he desires as long as he desires!
I Thessalonians 1: 14-15 and the Martyrdom of Christians
Posted : 21 Jun, 2011 10:26 AM
Well, this thread is about to go out of the most salient or first page, and on page two it won't be read very much.
Repetition of false doctrine does not prove that false doctrine is true. But repetition of the truth from Scripture doesn't convince those who do not have ears to hear or eyes to see.
Debate with a dispensationalist will just lead you into the dialectic with him or her. Scripture is taught in a didactic way, not with the dialectic. What is the dialectic? Ask Karl Marx. One cue is that he said to call any absolute truth or absolute moral an opinion.
If one or two here are interested in hat the dialectic is, go to:
http://authorityresearch.com/
And/or listen to Dean Gotcher at:
http://www.geomedianetwork.com/
He is on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays at ten to
ten thirty Pacific Standard Time
Gotcher often talks about scripture and these guys:
Abraham Maslow
Carl Rogers
Irvin Yalom
Theodor Adorno
Erick Fromm
Norman O. Brown
Herbart Marcuse
Except for Herbert Marcuse, all these guys are psychologists, and Irvin Yalom is an existentialist psychiatrist. Theodore W. Adorno posed as a social psychologist, but was an important propagandist and cultural critic, as well as having an influence on art of the 20th century. Most of these people were also cultural Marxists, and they all promoted the dialectic. Carl R. Rogers was one of my professors at Wisconsin when I was a graduate student there. Rogers was one psychologist who used a form of the dialectic as an attitude change procedure in encounter groups.
