Thread: Being your own Pope, OR... the Consensus of the Church
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Being your own Pope, OR... the Consensus of the Church
Posted : 17 Jun, 2011 10:23 AM
American Christians know what culture they live in.
We love Freedom and cherish individuality.
The rugged individual, and freedom that is so much of our culture has effected the way the Average pastor and Christian, interpret the Bible.
When the Bible was written, America did not exist, and our views can easily be mis-translated ONTO Scripture.
This is one of the several reasons we NEED the Body of Christ, to help us interpret Scripture properly.
I think I can see where the American ideas of freedom and individuality have been put onto Scripture, when in fact they are not there.
1. Arminianism. Arminianism has clearly 'won' in America.
Our nation was designed with freedom and liberty at its core, and American Christians have now translated that into freewill being the center of the Christian faith. It all about their supposed decision to follow Jesus that really saved them.
2. Individualism. We have the rugged pioneers who crossed the plains and against all odds, civilized America. We have translated that into a hyper-individualistic attitude that says that we don't need ANYONE to teach us anything. The belief is "Hey, I have the Holy Spirit, and my Bible and that is ALL I need..."
Some Christians have even taken it so far as to say they don't need to join the local church.
There are other things that color our view of Scripture as well, and we NEED to know church history to balance these things out.
Our psychological makeup colors our view of Scripture. Many Christians, without a very good understanding of the character of God, see God according to how their earthly fathers were when they were being raised by them.
This view of ignoring the consensus of the church, has a lot going for it, and NONE of it is scriptural.
If feels good to be your own Pope! You open the Bible and whatever your first private religious hunch is concerning a verse, well, THAT IS THE TRUTH! You have the Holy spirit, and that makes you infallible. It feels good to have this attitude, but it is WRONG.
The truth is, The Word of God is a collection of Ancient texts, written in a culture that is VERY different from ours.
Our own psychological makeup, our own culture, and our deficiency in knowledge of the Bible almost guarantee we will be wrong on a great deal if we choose to ignore church history and the body of Christ.
God has GIVEN US the remedy for these problems and He HAS told us in his word, that He has given us teachers, that we need the body of Christ, and that there is wisdom in many counselors.
That is why I say we, as Christians have the responsibility to know God's Word, and grow in our understanding as time goes on. And that the best way to do this is to:
1. Learn and follow the rules of interpretation.
2. Study church history.
3. Read the writings of the Puritans and the Reformers.
Being your own Pope, OR... the Consensus of the Church
Posted : 17 Jun, 2011 12:21 PM
Well you might more accurate say that interpretation of the word has become God for some in lieu of the word of God being the basis for faith, for the word of God gives no place for man's interpretation's.
The word of God has been expected to be heard and believed by man from the very beginning of time and it has never changed to this day.
Being your own Pope, OR... the Consensus of the Church
Posted : 17 Jun, 2011 12:43 PM
Our only guide is the Word of God and never the doctrinal statement of any church.
WHAT'S **LOVE** GOT TO DO WITH IT??
I Peter 1:22: "Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere **LOVE** for your brothers, l**LOVE** one another deeply, from the heart.":hearts:
I Corinthians 13:2,4-8: If I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not **LOVE** I am nothing...**LOVE** is patient, **LOVE** is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. **LOVE** does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. **LOVE** never fails!!":applause:
John 13:34: Jesus says, "A NEW command I give you: **LOVE** one another As I have loved you, so you must **LOVE** one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples.":rolleyes:
John 14:23: Jesus says, �If anyone **LOVES** Me, he will obey My teaching, My Father will **LOVE** him, and We will make Our home with him.�:rolleyes:
Matthew 28:19.20� Jesus commands, �Go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to *OBEY EVERYTHING* I have commanded you!� {See I John 2:3-5
EVERYTHING would also include all the other commands in God's inspired Word from Acts to Revelation as per 2 Timothy 3:16: 4:2: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work...Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.":peace:
If we really **LOVE** our brothers and sister in Christ we will lovingly teach them to obey all the approximately 400 commands of the NT with **LOVE** in the hope of countless eternal rewards when Jesus comes with great power with all His angels.
Revelation 22:112: Jesus says,"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with Me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done!?
Matthew 16:27: Jesus says, For the Son of Man is going to come in His **FATHER'S GLORY WITH HIS ANGELS**, and **THEN** He will reward each person according to what he has done."
Ephesians 4:15: "Speaking the Truth in **LOVE**:angel:, we will in all things grow up into Him who is the Head, that is, Christ!":rolleyes:
Many are afraid to quote the more controversial Truths in God's Word even if it is done **IN LOVE** such as: 2 Timothy 2:9-12:
"I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."
I Corinthians 14:33-35: "As in **ALL** the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are no allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."
However women may teach men outside of the church as per Acts 18:26: " When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited HIM to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately."
Wow, now I am deep trouble. Please rebuke and correct me gently and **IN LOVE**:hearts::rolleyes:
Being your own Pope, OR... the Consensus of the Church
Posted : 17 Jun, 2011 04:15 PM
PhillipJohn said:
"Well you might more accurate say that interpretation of the word has become God for some in lieu of the word of God being the basis for faith, for the word of God gives no place for man's interpretation's."
James replies:
When a person reads the Bible, they have no choice but to interpret what they read.
We all have to interpret what we read, there is no escaping that.
The thrust of my post is that since the Bible is a collection of ancient texts from a culture very different than ours, that we NEED to pay attention to what ALL Christians have said about the Bible.
If we ignore the Body of Christ, and INSIST upon our own private interpretation, we have made ourselves into our own Pope.
The WISE thing to do, is to study church history, and find out if there is consensus on certain doctrines, and if there is, then we should put great weight into considering that they may be right.
Being your own Pope, OR... the Consensus of the Church
Posted : 17 Jun, 2011 07:54 PM
IS SALVATION A 100 % FREE GIFT AND ETERNAL*REWARDS* 100% EARNED??
Ephesians 2:8,9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the **GIFT** of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do!"
Hebrews 11:6: "Anyone who comes to God must believe that He exists and that He *REWARDS* those who earnestly seek Him.":rolleyes:
Ephesians 6:7,8: "Serve wholeheartedly...because you know that the Lord will *REWARD* everyone for whatever good he does!"
2 John 1:8: "Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be *REWARDED* fully!"
I Corinthians 3:6-9: Paul said, "I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God makes things grow. The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be *REWARDED* according to his own labor. For we are God's fellow workers!":rolleyes:
Daniel 12:3: "Those who impart wisdom will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever!"
Matthew 5:11,12: Jesus says, "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad:applause:, because great is your *REWARD* in heaven!" {See Luke 6:35}
Revelation 22:12: Jesus says, "Behold, I am coming soon! My *REWARD* is with Me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done!"
2 Corinthians 5:9,10: "So we make it our goal to please Him..For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad!"
Matthew 16:27: Jesus says, For the Son of Man is going to come in His **FATHER'S GLORY WITH HIS ANGELS**:angel::angel::angel:{See Matt 24:30-31;25:31-40}, and **THEN** He will *REWARD* each person according to what he has done,":glow:
Jesus says in Rev 2:17; 3:4, 5, 21: �To him who overcomes...I will give a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.....He will walk with Me for he is worthy.... I will acknowledge his name before My Father and His angels.... I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem.....I will write on him my New Name... and I will give him the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.� According to Rev 22:3 these 2 thrones will be the only thrones in the Heavenly New Jerusalem!
So Salvation is a 100% FREE GIFT as per Ephesians 2:8,9 and eternal *REWARDS* for God's faithful saints are 100% earned!
I Peter 1:13: �Therefore, prepare your minds for *ACTION*, and set your hope *FULLY* on the grace to be given *YOU* when Jesus Christ is *REVEALED*.
Being your own Pope, OR... the Consensus of the Church
Posted : 18 Jun, 2011 01:00 AM
The argument that you are interpretation the bible whether you realize it or not, is just the justification and reasoning of carnal man.
The word of God was breathed from the throne of God to the heart of man years ago, but it was also before that in the heart of God until the day it was timely released, his word is timeless, it is spirit and it is life and liveth for ever more, it will never grow old.
The born again spirit of man is then in dwelt by the author of the word, and the son and the holy spirit, they are very capable of spiritually revealing the word of God to man.
Scripture is written in the bible for all of what man needs to know and it is the history of the church and the lord never mentioned, that the puritans would have the correct history, if one followed the puritans one would be led astray of the truth, the word of God.
The holy spirit working thru the ministry gifts of the apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors, teachers and in the heart of the believer is more than enough more all of mankind.
Being your own Pope, OR... the Consensus of the Church
Posted : 18 Jun, 2011 08:05 AM
Yes I agree that the Bible is interpreted through cultural lenses and similarly it was written in cultural contexts.
Why can't I be a Pope? I have a direct relationsihp with God, I am also a Catholic - not a Roman Catholic (Catholic being universal Church).
I agree also that we must seek wisdom fellowship with fellow believers, myself I cherish these times.
Also however I have wondered about what it is to be religious, and have come to the conclusion that it is doing somthing for the sake of doing or understanding why you're doing (a variation of ther former). Because I have found that revelations that I have had, often have been a blessing for thoses around me but also just for me; but forcing my revelation on them with them receiving it for themselves am I being religious also. Not to mention that God has made us uniquely.
I don't know where the line, myself I think intimacy with God is the primary guiding factor.
Being your own Pope, OR... the Consensus of the Church
Posted : 18 Jun, 2011 08:15 AM
Phillip it seems that agree with you.
However I am curious who you would see the following and how you appreciate it? What do you think about this, I remember a story about a pentecostal preacher at a Baptist convention of pastors, where he opens up to 500 of them and says "who knows the Bibles not always righ?" You would think if he wanted the session to be finished early or had some where else to be he should have just said so. Then after allowing them a moment to hear what he had said, he shared that without the Holy Spirit guiding the heart then it is just another book. Just another book well I am not going to go there. But what was it that the Bible used to tempt the Lord? It was scripture.
Being your own Pope, OR... the Consensus of the Church
Posted : 19 Jun, 2011 01:02 PM
We have big problems when Popes start interpreting Scripture:
2 Timothy 3:16; & 2 Tim 4:3,4: � **ALL SCRIPTURE** is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.... For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
Matthew 1:24,25: When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her **UNTIL** she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
Mark 6:1,3:Jesus left and went to His hometown...and began to teach...They asked, "Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't His sisters here with us?"
Mark 3:31-34: Then Jesus' mother and BROTHERS arrived. Standing outside...A crowd was sitting around Him, and they told Him, "Your mother and BROTHERS are outside looking for you." "Who are My mother and my brothers?" Jesus asked. Then He looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother!"
Matthew 6:6,9-11: Jesus says, �When you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your **Father**, who is unseen. Then your **Father**, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you ...This then is how you should pray: �Our Father in Heaven, hallowed be your name, your Kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.....� Is there even one instance where a believer prayed to someone other than the **Father** in the OT or the NT?? Answer; ZERO! What church had its evil leader decree that it is OK to pray to and worship Mary, a human being, who was a sinless VIRGIN??
I Timothy 3:1-5:If anyone sets his heart on being an Overseer or Bishop, he desires a noble task. Now the Overseer or Bishop must be the husband of but one wife.....He must manage his own family well..If anyone does no know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church? I Tim 3:12 and Titus 1:6: Deacons and Elders should also be the husband of but one wife. I Corinthians 9:5: Paul said �Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other Apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas {PETER} What church became famous for having thousands of their unmarried priests fondle and seduce hundreds of thousands of innocent and trusting children??
Matthew 23:9: Jesus says, �Do not call ANYONE on earth 'father,' for you have ONE {Spiritual} Father, and He is in Heaven!!� What Church calls all their priests spiritual �Fathers�?? And their Satanic leader �Holy Father�??
This Church actually claim that they do not worship Mary but what are all these "Hail Mary's" all about??? Actually this Church worships and prays to Mary far more than they worship Jesus and His Father combined even though God's Word commands us over 100 times to Worship and pray to GOD ALONE
Hebrews 9:15,26b-28: Christ is the mediator of a NEW COVENANT so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant...But now He has APPEARED ONCE FOR ALL at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the SACRIFICE of Himself... so Christ was SACRIFICED ONCE to take away the sins of many people, and He will *APPEAR* a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him. Hebrews 10:10: �We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus **ONCE FOR ALL**!!� Now there are some who believe that Jesus has to die every day except Good Friday to take away sins and that Satanic priests have the power to change wine into the blood of Jesus and wafers into the body of Jesus which they eat. Sounds like a great church for cannibals and vampires.
Rev 22:16,18,19: Jesus says, �I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give *YOU* {The Greek for YOU is plural} this testimony *FOR* the CHURCHES.�... �I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book. If anyone **ADDS** anything to them, God will add to him the plagues {Including eternal torment in Hell} described in this book. And if anyone **TAKES WORD AWAY** from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city which are described in this book.�
