I believe the following Scripture might show forth Mongerism.
I will post in 3 different translations.
KJV:
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Literal Translation Version
Rom 9:11 for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of the One calling,
Rom 9:12 it was said to her, "The greater shall serve the lesser;" Gen. 25:23
Rom 9:13 even as it has been written, "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau." Mal. 1:2, 3
Rom 9:14 What then shall we say? Is there not unrighteousness with God? Let it not be!
Rom 9:15 For He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will pity whomever I will pity." Ex. 33:19
Rom 9:16 So, then, it is not of the one willing, nor of the one running, but of the One showing mercy, of God.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very thing I raised you up, so that I might display My power in you, and so that My name might be publicized in all the earth." Ex. 9:16
Rom 9:18 So, then, to whom He desires, He shows mercy. And to whom He desires, He hardens.
Rom 9:19 You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?
Rom 9:20 Yes, rather, O man, who are you answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it, Why did You make me like this? Isa. 29:16
Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the one lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor? Jer. 18:6
Rom 9:22 But if God, desiring to demonstrate His wrath, and to make His power known, endured in much long-suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and that He make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which He before prepared for glory,
Youngs Literal
Rom 9:11 (for they being not yet born, neither having done anything good or evil, that the purpose of God, according to choice, might remain; not of works, but of Him who is calling,) it was said to her--
Rom 9:12 `The greater shall serve the less;'
Rom 9:13 according as it hath been written, `Jacob I did love, and Esau I did hate.'
Rom 9:14 What, then, shall we say? unrighteousness is with God? let it not be!
Rom 9:15 for to Moses He saith, `I will do kindness to whom I do kindness, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion;'
Rom 9:16 so, then--not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness:
Rom 9:17 for the Writing saith to Pharaoh--`For this very thing I did raise thee up, that I might shew in thee My power, and that My name might be declared in all the land;'
Rom 9:18 so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?'
Rom 9:20 nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form it , Why me didst thou make thus?
Rom 9:21 hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?
Rom 9:22 And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on vessels of kindness, that He before prepared for glory, whom also He did call--us--
Mr. Meanie, if you think the Scriptures you posted negate man's free will, it shows your limited understanding of spiritual realities and the awesomeness of God. I don't mean to be offensive, however much like James you deal with Scripture in cold hard calculations and don't have a understanding of 'Life' and the nature of God.
It is almost impossible to explain 'feel' to a person. Even now you have probably taken the wrong path by categorizing it as a emotion. There is a deeper level in Life beyond the cold hard calculations of Scripture. Scripture speaks much about it, however it is not understood through logical calculations; it is understood through relationship; the actual experience and feel of --- it is only then will you see the dance!
How many times must it be posted that a man is a SLAVE to sin,until yeshua sets him/her free.
John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
There are 2 types of bondage,physical and spiritual.
An unregenerated man is in both types of bondage.
Fist he is bound spiritually,for he is dead spiritually.
As he is dead spiritually,he cannot conceive that there is enything beyond this life,so they do what is in the dead nature of man,THEY SIN,and without any type of conviction that they do wrong.
Second,they do all according to the fallen nature of Adam which everyone born of a woman has inherited form Adam.
No one can be free from sin,
That is bondage to the fallen nature of man,without fist being freed from the spiritual bondage that has enslaved them since conception.
After Yehusa has freed a person by giving them Eternal life,
Then they have choice of Submission to the will of GOD,
Or to rebel and be disciplined accordingly.
Your struggle is not with me.
Your struggle is with the Sovereignty of GOD.
He does according to His will,not according to my will,emotions,whims or tantrums.
I hope that you will be having a Blessed and safe weekend.
Shalom
Mr.Meanie
ps:
Had we had free will from birth,not one preson would be choosing to trust Yeshua to save them from the Wrath of GOD against sin.
It is the WILL of GOD ALMIGHTY to save man,
Mans will is to sin,and rebel against the GOD which created them.
How many times are you going to post that Scripture about man being a slave to sin without understanding it? Looking with Reformer glasses you miss the meaning as this passage contrasts the position of a servant and a son. You don't think a servant ever desires to be a son? --- the answer is 'no' only in the fantasy doctrines of the Reformers, in real life it is not so.
Besides hyper-literalizing Scripture the other place you go astray is not realizing there are different kinds of slaves, some volunteer, some it against their will, so it was when this passage was written.
Another thing caught my eye, ( "As he is dead spiritually,he cannot conceive that there is enything beyond this life,") however I don't want to embarrass you by posting Scripture in direct conflict with this statement. If you think :rocknroll:about it I am sure it will come to you --- it is also in Romans.
I feel kinda bad that you have bought into all this :-(
The reason it is continually posted time and time again, is for the simple fact of converting some, but you would have to leave Jesus to believe such hellish doctrine, and that is saying it nicely.
