Thanks T for bringing this thread back to this page. The following are my last two replies to James-
James wrote - "This is your latest trick?"
It's not a trick, James. I'd like to know the answer as well. And the question has nothing to do with attributing to one's own salvation. The Cross is the only answer to salvation. None of us deny that. What it does have to do with, is man capable of responding to the Holy Spirit in the negative?
James wrote - "WHEN the Holy Spirit does this, THEN that person NATURALLY wants to repent and believe, and they do."
This is not always true, therefore the question... Some refuse the Holy Spirit. Your theology can't accept that fact because your theology has no room for man choosing to accept Christ much less to deny Christ when prompted by the Holy Spirit.
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Somehow I figured I'd be reading an article. :laugh:
I do think it's a stretch though to believe that babies who die before birth are in heaven based upon them being unconditional elect, as if they are the only babies who die in the womb.
The writer mentions, "The key issue here is that God specifically exempted from the judgment those who �have no knowledge of good or evil� because of their age."
So how does this apply to young children? If God exempts them from judgment based upon their having no knowledge of good and evil, are they truly born "totally depraved" as defined by Reformed Theology?
I was so Totally Depraved at birth that I would drool on and spit up on myself and smile about it. In fact I was so depraved I would poop in my pants and peee any where I pleased.
Unless you are born into a Reformed family; then you must be born again before you ask for a clean diaper :laugh:
.....wait that doesn't make sense....
....if your dirty diaper was already replaced with a clean one, why would you ask for a clean one......I'm confused; those Reformers must be way to smart for me!
I dunno... maybe because you naturally want to repent of your dirty diaper and believe that the one you now have is clean after receiving the clean one? You sure can learn a lot from little children. :laugh:
Jeremiah 19:4-5 "Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire [for] burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake [it], neither came [it] into my mind:"
I believe the above passage rejects the notion that all are created in the womb and born "totally depraved". God says those babies who were being sacrificed to Baal were innocent. Today we sacrifice our babies to Abortion, which fills this world with the blood of innocents. Not "totally depraved, unconditionally elected souls", but the blood of innocents. Also consider the following -
Ezekiel 16:20-21 "Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. [Is this] of thy whoredoms a small matter, That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through [the fire] for them?"
God calls these children who were sacrificed, His children. Does God call a "totally depraved, created for damnation" child, His child, in the view of the Reformists? The child that David had with Bathsheba, conceived in sin, died in infancy. Consider what David said in 2 Samuel 12:22-23 -
"And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell [whether] GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."
The child went to be with God. David knew that he would go to him or see him again.
While the following verses are speaking of Christ, I believe they indicate as well, that a young child is not fully capable of making moral choices, because he does not know or understand the difference between the evil and the good.
Isaiah 7:14-16 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings."
It appears that there comes a time in one's life when we know the difference between good and evil. So until at such time a person is able to fully understand the difference between good and evil, the doctrine of "totally depraved" actually depraves the person himself of learning the difference.
, is man capable of responding to the Holy Spirit in the negative?
James replies:
Fallen mankind will ALWAYS reject God, UNLESS the Holy Spirit enters them and makes them a new creature.
Their are people who are spiritually DEAD, and there are people who are spiritually ALIVE and there is NO other state of being.
IF the Holy Spirit enters a person and makes them into a new creation, then they may complain, and attempt to run from it, but they WILL return. Even if it means they lose their job, or freedom or life, or spouse.
Fallen man cannot make himself to be born again,
or UN-born again.
James wrote - "WHEN the Holy Spirit does this, THEN that person NATURALLY wants to repent and believe, and they do."
This is not always true,
James replies:
NO, IT IS ALWAYS TRUE! Have you forgotten that GOD CHOOSES HIS PEOPLE???
God is sovereign and EVERYTHING He has planned WILL COME TO PASS.
That includes bringing His chosen people to glory, every last one of them.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Joh 6:35-40 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
NOT ONE of the sheep the Father has given Jesus will be lost.
Jesus speaks repeatedly of those who believe in Him as a special flock of sheep that God the father has GIVEN Him. Jesus says that He will NOT lose EVEN ONE of them.
71 said:
therefore the question... Some refuse the Holy Spirit. Your theology can't accept that fact because your theology has no room for man choosing to accept Christ much less to deny Christ when prompted by the Holy Spirit.
James replies: ALL.....refuse the Holy Spirit UNTIL the Holy Spirit makes them come alive spiritually, and THEN they suddenly DESIRE to repent and believe, and THEY DO.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FREE WILL CONCERNING SALVATION IN SCRIPTURE.
You have an entire world full of spiritual zombies, and God in His mercy makes SOME of them come alive.
"For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5)
Are you contradicting this and saying, "Oh but I have the ability to repent and trust in Jesus myself..."
"Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).
Are you contradicting this and saying "Well, I have my decision, I did that myself!"
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
