After having asked James in another thread how Reformed Theology views children in regards to salvation [to which he hasn't answered yet], I got to thinking.... are we really "totally depraved" when we are born? Did God form us in the womb as evil and sinful creatures, totally depraved in the womb, of which state we remain until at such time we learn whether we are of the creation of elect or created to be damned? Is this really a sound doctrine? Or can we say instead that we are born with a sinful nature that will at some point in life realize the need for a Saviour, or choose to continue to love our sinful lives and reject Christ instead?
David wrote in Psalm 127:3, "Lo, children [are] an heritage of the LORD: [and] the fruit of the womb [is his] reward." So children are a gift from the Lord. The fruit of the womb is His reward. Does God give 'evil' gifts? Nope. James tells us in 1:17 that, "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." What does that say about children being a gift from the Lord? Does God create the totally depraved and evil soul of every child born, as a good gift and reward? As a mother, I would have to say no. Not once did it enter my mind when my children were born that they were evil, totally depraved, beings, created and born that way. They were wonderfully created, beginning life in innocence to good and evil, having the knowledge of neither.
We read in Deuteronomy 1:39, "Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it." There is a verse, Romans 9:11, that RT's use in 'proving' that God can hate, but in this case we see again that children, even from before birth, have no knowledge of good and evil; "(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)" If, as RT's demand, we are totally depraved from birth [or eternity], and Scripture tells us that children and those in the womb have no knowledge of good and evil, how can they begin life as evil, corrupt and totally depraved beings, knowing nothing but evil, and continue as such until they are visibly elect or burning in hell through no will of their own? Furthermore, let's see what Jesus said about children in Matthew 18:1-6...
At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Children have such admirable qualities of trust, humility, and compassion. And Jesus encourages us to become like them. If they were born as totally depraved, corrupt little evil beings, do you really Jesus would encourage us to become like them? And what does Jesus mean when He says, "whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea."? Isn't He talking about causing a child to sin? He finds this so offensive that it would be better one drown in the bottom of the ocean. So again, my question is - are we born in totally depravity, knowing and living nothing but how to live evil, sinful lives; corrupt from the moment we take our first breath?
I have noted and acknowledged that we are born with a sin nature, and I know all too well that children need to be taught what is good. But, and as my question goes, are we born so totally depraved and corrupt at birth, that we know 'nothing' but how to be evil from the time we are born. Are we unable to make any moral decisions because of our total depravity? Do we begin life totally depraved, desiring, understanding, and doing only what is evil and wicked? Is that how God created us in the eternity before we were in the womb?
If that is your view, then maybe you can explain the passage in Matthew 18:1-6, and answer why Jesus encourages us to become as little children. Or why God said Jacob and Esau being not yet born, had not done any good or evil, if in fact we are created as evil beings.
I forgot to mention... anyone that places two children with only one item in front of them, is crazy. :laugh: That is not how to teach a child anything except to fight over the one item.
To answer the question about why Jesus said "let the little children come" and "lest you become like little children"
I feel this has to do with innocent faith, a faith that has not been corrupted and turned cynical and skeptical by worldly influences.
As for the sin nature: God did not create us or does He create babies with a sin nature. The sin nature came through Adam and Eve relationship with Satan which intetjrected and intwined his nature with mans at such a deep physical and spiritual level that it is something that is passed on in the procreation of man, just like a virus in the blood.
It is only Jesus that can cure us, however the cure is that we must die and trust Him for the rest.
Not disagreeing, however a Scripture reference would be nice so we can interact with your post. Paul said alot of things, which means (no offense) your post says nothing.
"To answer the question about why Jesus said "let the little children come" and "lest you become like little children" I feel this has to do with innocent faith, a faith that has not been corrupted and turned cynical and skeptical by worldly influences."
Yes! Children are so trusting. You can tell your child there is a God. You can tell him there is a Jesus. He will trust you in that. He will believe it. And he will love Jesus. Child like faith. And how about Matthew 21:15-16?
And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,
And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?
Jesus confirmed above that in the mouths of children and babies, is praise perfected. More child like faith? So how can Replacement Theology even think that we are so totally depraved from the womb to birth, when we have Jesus telling us to become like little children and these children display such faith in Jesus and with such perfect praise?
"As for the sin nature: God did not create us or does He create babies with a sin nature. The sin nature came through Adam and Eve relationship with Satan which intetjrected and intwined his nature with mans at such a deep physical and spiritual level that it is something that is passed on in the procreation of man, just like a virus in the blood."
Agreed. We all are born with a sin 'nature', having the ability to sin, obviously, and due to original sin. But that is a big difference than having been born totally depraved, without the ability to hear God. Don't children seem to prove it?
Two unless you don't know the scripture. Hello, You never have seen me post anything not scriptural.
Now some might say that is prideful, not at all it is be accountable, we should always be accurate.
I have posted this several times, but people choose to believe themselves.
Romans 7:7 � What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
