Thread: Harold Camping and the Amillennialist View of Prophecy
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Harold Camping and the Amillennialist View of Prophecy
Posted : 4 Jun, 2011 12:35 AM
The
Catholic and Calvinist amillennialist view involves a lot more than
just their rejection of Revelation 20: 1-5 on the thousand year reign
of Christ when the saved in Christ will reign with Christ. The
amillennialists tend to interpret away much of end time Bible prophecy
as being mere broad sweeping allegory. They say the thousand year
reign of Christ of Revelation 20: 1-5 is the entire church period.
Likewise, the amillennialists say the 144,000 of Revelation 7:3-8 and
14: 1-5 represent all the saved people of all ages.
So the amillennialists tend to interpret end time Bible prophecy in a
very general broad sweeping allegorical way. This tendency to see end time prophecy as being only broad sweeping allegory discourages them from studying end time prophecy more consistently
to understand it more fully in greater detail and
depth - and it is a difficult subject to understand. Its not surprising
that Harold Camping and his loyal followers would not know end time prophecy
too well, and might therefore be more likely to believe that the end
of the world and the rapture could be predicted by a study of
time spans in the Old Testament and by Camping's peculiar Biblical numerology.
For years Harold Camping alone has hosted a call-in radio program
over Family Radio called Open Forum. Here is Camping's response to a
question about the 144,000 of Revelation 7: 1-8. This is long, but it
illustrates
Camping's use of amillennialist doctrine in interpreting an end time prophecy.
621A OPEN FORUM With Harold Camping
Who are the 144,000 of Revelation 7? This is from the
records of Open Forum compiled by Leon Kolberg.
Harold Camping: "Good evening. Welcome to Open Forum.
CALLER: Hi. I have a question from Revelation. I've heard someone
refer to the 144,000 sealed, who are mentioned in Chapter 7, verse 4,
as being the people who are saved. And I'm confused on this. I've
also been told that this wasn't true. And I'd also like to know if
those mentioned there in verse 4 are the same ones mentioned in verse
9.
HC: The question is, who are the 144,000 of Revelation 7? We read in
Revelation 7 that they are the ones who are to be sealed on their
foreheads before the events described in Revelation 8 and 9 take
place. We find the same 144,000 emphasized in Revelation 14, where it
speaks of them in verse 1, "one hundred and forty-four thousand,
having the Father's name written in their foreheads," and they, we
read in verse 3, were those who were "redeemed from the earth, they
which were not defiled with women, they are virgins. These are they
which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goest. These were redeemed
from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and the Lamb. And in
their mouth was found no guile, for they are without fault before the
throne of God."
Incidentally, in Revelation 7 God speaks of them as being 12,000 from
each of 12 tribes of Israel. Now we know of course that the company
of those who will be saved is a vast company which no man can number,
according to the language in various places. Abraham was told, for
example, that his seed would be as the sand of the seashore. And
actually, the information in Revelation 7:9 is talking about a vast
company who are saved: "After this I beheld and lo, a great multitude
which no man can number, of all nations and kindreds and people and
tongues, who stood before the Throne and before the Lamb, clothed
with white robes and palms in their hands." This is the number of the
people who are saved. And so we know that 144,000 literally could not
signify the number of saved people although in Revelation 14 it is
talking about all those who were redeemed from the earth.
When we look at this number 12, however (or the number 144, which, is
12 times 12), we find that particularly in Revelation (although it
could be in other parts of the Bible, also).God is using it as a
symbolical number to illustrate the wonderful truth of the fullness
of whatever God has in view. And because it's talking about people
here, it would be the fullness of all believers. We find this
dramatically in Revelation 21, where it talks about "the Holy City,
the New Jerusalem." It has 12 foundations, it has 12 gates. Its walls
are 144 cubits. Now that's not a real wall. You can't build a wall
144 cubits. It doesn't say whether it was 144 cubits long or wide or
high. It's just 144 cubits. And so we know that the number is
symbolical. It's emphasizing the fullness of all believers.
And so in Revelation 7, where it talks about 144,000, God is simply
saying, this is the fullness of all believers. All who are to be
saved must be saved before the account of Revelation 8 and 9 will
begin - before the final Tribulation will begin. And so indeed they
are the same group of people spoken of in verse 9, these who have
come out of great tribulation, out of the Great Tribulation. It's the
totality of all the believers that will ever believe on the Lord
Jesus Christ
Thank you for sharing that question. Good night."
In saying the 144,000 are "...the totality of all the believers that
will ever believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" Camping is following the
Augustine interpretation of Revelation 7: 1-8. Camping is
emphasizing the numerology of 12 x 12 and the 144,000 more than
Augustine may have done. However, Origen who influenced the broad
Amillennial allegorical method of interpretation used by Augustine,
Harold Camping and the Amillennialist View of Prophecy
Posted : 4 Jun, 2011 07:59 AM
I put the Catholic, Calvinism and Harold Camping views of end time prophecy in the same category as Nostredomus, you know...kinda interesting but missing on a the majority of points.
Harold Camping and the Amillennialist View of Prophecy
Posted : 4 Jun, 2011 09:34 AM
The majority of Reformed or Calvinist preachers are amillennialists.
But there are Reformed people who are historical pre-millennialists.
A large percentage of Christians who lived in the first three centuries after Christ were historical pre-millenialists and so were church fathers such as t Papias, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Methodius, Commodianus, and Lactanitus.
Historical pre-millennialists believed that there will be a thousand year reign of Christ on earth following the tribulation. But they did not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the "church," nor did they believe in Jewish supremacy or that God has two different peoples, the physical Israelites or the Jews, and the "church."
They did not think that the "church" replaced physical Israel, which is a Catholic notion.
The Christian Remnant believes, from scripture, that God transformed physical Israel into Israel reborn in Jesus Christ.
Some Reformed historical pre-millennialists are R.C. Sproul and J.I. Packer. I have read that Walter Martin who wrote the book, The Kingdom of the Cults, was also an historical pre-millennialist.
Eldon Ladd was an important recent historical pre-millennialist.
Harold Camping and the Amillennialist View of Prophecy
Posted : 4 Jun, 2011 10:33 AM
The thousand year reign of Christ is just that. A thousand year reign of Christ. The 144,000 from the 12 Tribes are just that. 12 Tribes of 12,000 each. 144,000 total. Of the children of Israel. As for Harold Camping... never mind.
Harold Camping and the Amillennialist View of Prophecy
Posted : 4 Jun, 2011 01:26 PM
The 144,000 are of Israel. But of which Israel? Paul says in Romans 9: 6-8, "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
For many Christians, theology now overrides Scripture. Romans 9: 6-8 says something directly opposite to that of the theology that has taken over much of the "church" since about `1890.
Harold Camping and the Amillennialist View of Prophecy
Posted : 4 Jun, 2011 01:54 PM
I was interested in what the New International Version says for Romans 9: 6-8; It says " It is not as though God�s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham�s children. On the contrary, �It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.] 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God�s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham�s offspring."
I don't recommend the NIV, but for this particular text what it says
is not different from the King James Version. In fact, it says clearly "...it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children." Here the paraphrase method of translation does seem to make the sentence more explicit, but this one example does not mean the NIV always comes out saying in a explicit way what the Greek says.
An Interlinear Greek-English type translation (Berry,1958) says with a literal word for word translation "not the children of the flesh, these are children of God." All you have to do to translate this into good English is change the word order to "the children of the flesh are not the children of God," leaving out "these," or you can translate it as "the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God," which is close to the way the King James Version translates it. The mention of "by physical descent" in the NIV is an example of its method of translation, which adds English words where there are no Greek words having that meaning, , and where a word for word translation would leave out "by physical descent."
Harold Camping and the Amillennialist View of Prophecy
Posted : 4 Jun, 2011 03:04 PM
The
Catholic and Calvinist amillennialist view involves a lot more than
just their rejection of Revelation 20: 1-5 on the thousand year reign
of Christ when the saved in Christ will reign with Christ.
James replies:
What we reject is hyper-literalism. John was shown a VISION by God, and wrote down what he saw.
How can one literally SEE a "thousand years"?
If I go outside at night and look up at the sky, and say to you:
"There are a thousand stars in the sky tonight"
You don't take that as literal, you take that to mean that a person can see a LOT of stars.
when John said "a thousand years" he meant a perfect and long amount of tme.
To take the MOST SYMBOLIC book of the Bible, and pretend that everything in it is literal is wrong.
Halfback said:
The
amillennialists tend to interpret away much of end time Bible prophecy
as being mere broad sweeping allegory. They say the thousand year
reign of Christ of Revelation 20: 1-5 is the entire church period.
James replies:
That is correct, the thousand years is the church age, the one you and I live in.
Halfback said:
Likewise, the amillennialists say the 144,000 of Revelation 7:3-8 and
14: 1-5 represent all the saved people of all ages.
So the amillennialists tend to interpret end time Bible prophecy in a
very general broad sweeping allegorical way. This tendency to see end time prophecy as being only broad sweeping allegory discourages them from studying end time prophecy more consistently
James replies:
that claim is baseless, and you forgot to mention that the majority of the church and theologians fall under the Amill view.
Halfback said:
to understand it more fully in greater detail and
depth - and it is a difficult subject to understand. Its not surprising
that Harold Camping and his loyal followers would not know end time prophecy
too well, and might therefore be more likely to believe that the end
of the world and the rapture could be predicted by a study of
time spans in the Old Testament and by Camping's peculiar Biblical numerology.
James replies:
Are you implying that Harold Camping is a crackpot BECAUSE he supposedly takes an Amill view of John's Revelation?
Camping is a heretical crackpot because of his ARROGANCE, and his entire view is based upon numerology, that he made up himself.
What has this to do with the historic view of Amillenialism?
Look,
I dont want to spend any time examining Camping's view on anything.
But attempting to say Amillenialism is wrong because Camping supposedly believes it, is illogical.
First off, you never showed any evidence that Camping DOES take the Amill view.
Secondly, just saying "well the Catholics believed it" ALSO provides no evidenced on whether or not some claim is true or false.
In Christ,
James
Halfback said:
For years Harold Camping alone has hosted a call-in radio program
over Family Radio called Open Forum. Here is Camping's response to a
question about the 144,000 of Revelation 7: 1-8. This is long, but it
illustrates
Camping's use of amillennialist doctrine in interpreting an end time prophecy.
621A OPEN FORUM With Harold Camping
Who are the 144,000 of Revelation 7? This is from the
records of Open Forum compiled by Leon Kolberg.
Harold Camping: "Good evening. Welcome to Open Forum.
CALLER: Hi. I have a question from Revelation. I've heard someone
refer to the 144,000 sealed, who are mentioned in Chapter 7, verse 4,
as being the people who are saved. And I'm confused on this. I've
also been told that this wasn't true. And I'd also like to know if
those mentioned there in verse 4 are the same ones mentioned in verse
9.
HC: The question is, who are the 144,000 of Revelation 7? We read in
Revelation 7 that they are the ones who are to be sealed on their
foreheads before the events described in Revelation 8 and 9 take
place. We find the same 144,000 emphasized in Revelation 14, where it
speaks of them in verse 1, "one hundred and forty-four thousand,
having the Father's name written in their foreheads," and they, we
read in verse 3, were those who were "redeemed from the earth, they
which were not defiled with women, they are virgins. These are they
which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goest. These were redeemed
from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and the Lamb. And in
their mouth was found no guile, for they are without fault before the
throne of God."
Incidentally, in Revelation 7 God speaks of them as being 12,000 from
each of 12 tribes of Israel. Now we know of course that the company
of those who will be saved is a vast company which no man can number,
according to the language in various places. Abraham was told, for
example, that his seed would be as the sand of the seashore. And
actually, the information in Revelation 7:9 is talking about a vast
company who are saved: "After this I beheld and lo, a great multitude
which no man can number, of all nations and kindreds and people and
tongues, who stood before the Throne and before the Lamb, clothed
with white robes and palms in their hands." This is the number of the
people who are saved. And so we know that 144,000 literally could not
signify the number of saved people although in Revelation 14 it is
talking about all those who were redeemed from the earth.
When we look at this number 12, however (or the number 144, which, is
12 times 12), we find that particularly in Revelation (although it
could be in other parts of the Bible, also).God is using it as a
symbolical number to illustrate the wonderful truth of the fullness
of whatever God has in view. And because it's talking about people
here, it would be the fullness of all believers. We find this
dramatically in Revelation 21, where it talks about "the Holy City,
the New Jerusalem." It has 12 foundations, it has 12 gates. Its walls
are 144 cubits. Now that's not a real wall. You can't build a wall
144 cubits. It doesn't say whether it was 144 cubits long or wide or
high. It's just 144 cubits. And so we know that the number is
symbolical. It's emphasizing the fullness of all believers.
And so in Revelation 7, where it talks about 144,000, God is simply
saying, this is the fullness of all believers. All who are to be
saved must be saved before the account of Revelation 8 and 9 will
begin - before the final Tribulation will begin. And so indeed they
are the same group of people spoken of in verse 9, these who have
come out of great tribulation, out of the Great Tribulation. It's the
totality of all the believers that will ever believe on the Lord
Jesus Christ
Thank you for sharing that question. Good night."
In saying the 144,000 are "...the totality of all the believers that
will ever believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" Camping is following the
Augustine interpretation of Revelation 7: 1-8. Camping is
emphasizing the numerology of 12 x 12 and the 144,000 more than
Augustine may have done. However, Origen who influenced the broad
Amillennial allegorical method of interpretation used by Augustine,
Harold Camping and the Amillennialist View of Prophecy
Posted : 4 Jun, 2011 03:04 PM
The
Catholic and Calvinist amillennialist view involves a lot more than
just their rejection of Revelation 20: 1-5 on the thousand year reign
of Christ when the saved in Christ will reign with Christ.
James replies:
What we reject is hyper-literalism. John was shown a VISION by God, and wrote down what he saw.
How can one literally SEE a "thousand years"?
If I go outside at night and look up at the sky, and say to you:
"There are a thousand stars in the sky tonight"
You don't take that as literal, you take that to mean that a person can see a LOT of stars.
when John said "a thousand years" he meant a perfect and long amount of tme.
To take the MOST SYMBOLIC book of the Bible, and pretend that everything in it is literal is wrong.
Halfback said:
The
amillennialists tend to interpret away much of end time Bible prophecy
as being mere broad sweeping allegory. They say the thousand year
reign of Christ of Revelation 20: 1-5 is the entire church period.
James replies:
That is correct, the thousand years is the church age, the one you and I live in.
Halfback said:
Likewise, the amillennialists say the 144,000 of Revelation 7:3-8 and
14: 1-5 represent all the saved people of all ages.
So the amillennialists tend to interpret end time Bible prophecy in a
very general broad sweeping allegorical way. This tendency to see end time prophecy as being only broad sweeping allegory discourages them from studying end time prophecy more consistently
James replies:
that claim is baseless, and you forgot to mention that the majority of the church and theologians fall under the Amill view.
Halfback said:
to understand it more fully in greater detail and
depth - and it is a difficult subject to understand. Its not surprising
that Harold Camping and his loyal followers would not know end time prophecy
too well, and might therefore be more likely to believe that the end
of the world and the rapture could be predicted by a study of
time spans in the Old Testament and by Camping's peculiar Biblical numerology.
James replies:
Are you implying that Harold Camping is a crackpot BECAUSE he supposedly takes an Amill view of John's Revelation?
Camping is a heretical crackpot because of his ARROGANCE, and his entire view is based upon numerology, that he made up himself.
What has this to do with the historic view of Amillenialism?
Look,
I dont want to spend any time examining Camping's view on anything.
But attempting to say Amillenialism is wrong because Camping supposedly believes it, is illogical.
First off, you never showed any evidence that Camping DOES take the Amill view.
Secondly, just saying "well the Catholics believed it" ALSO provides no evidenced on whether or not some claim is true or false.
In Christ,
James
Halfback said:
For years Harold Camping alone has hosted a call-in radio program
over Family Radio called Open Forum. Here is Camping's response to a
question about the 144,000 of Revelation 7: 1-8. This is long, but it
illustrates
Camping's use of amillennialist doctrine in interpreting an end time prophecy.
621A OPEN FORUM With Harold Camping
Who are the 144,000 of Revelation 7? This is from the
records of Open Forum compiled by Leon Kolberg.
Harold Camping: "Good evening. Welcome to Open Forum.
CALLER: Hi. I have a question from Revelation. I've heard someone
refer to the 144,000 sealed, who are mentioned in Chapter 7, verse 4,
as being the people who are saved. And I'm confused on this. I've
also been told that this wasn't true. And I'd also like to know if
those mentioned there in verse 4 are the same ones mentioned in verse
9.
HC: The question is, who are the 144,000 of Revelation 7? We read in
Revelation 7 that they are the ones who are to be sealed on their
foreheads before the events described in Revelation 8 and 9 take
place. We find the same 144,000 emphasized in Revelation 14, where it
speaks of them in verse 1, "one hundred and forty-four thousand,
having the Father's name written in their foreheads," and they, we
read in verse 3, were those who were "redeemed from the earth, they
which were not defiled with women, they are virgins. These are they
which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goest. These were redeemed
from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and the Lamb. And in
their mouth was found no guile, for they are without fault before the
throne of God."
Incidentally, in Revelation 7 God speaks of them as being 12,000 from
each of 12 tribes of Israel. Now we know of course that the company
of those who will be saved is a vast company which no man can number,
according to the language in various places. Abraham was told, for
example, that his seed would be as the sand of the seashore. And
actually, the information in Revelation 7:9 is talking about a vast
company who are saved: "After this I beheld and lo, a great multitude
which no man can number, of all nations and kindreds and people and
tongues, who stood before the Throne and before the Lamb, clothed
with white robes and palms in their hands." This is the number of the
people who are saved. And so we know that 144,000 literally could not
signify the number of saved people although in Revelation 14 it is
talking about all those who were redeemed from the earth.
When we look at this number 12, however (or the number 144, which, is
12 times 12), we find that particularly in Revelation (although it
could be in other parts of the Bible, also).God is using it as a
symbolical number to illustrate the wonderful truth of the fullness
of whatever God has in view. And because it's talking about people
here, it would be the fullness of all believers. We find this
dramatically in Revelation 21, where it talks about "the Holy City,
the New Jerusalem." It has 12 foundations, it has 12 gates. Its walls
are 144 cubits. Now that's not a real wall. You can't build a wall
144 cubits. It doesn't say whether it was 144 cubits long or wide or
high. It's just 144 cubits. And so we know that the number is
symbolical. It's emphasizing the fullness of all believers.
And so in Revelation 7, where it talks about 144,000, God is simply
saying, this is the fullness of all believers. All who are to be
saved must be saved before the account of Revelation 8 and 9 will
begin - before the final Tribulation will begin. And so indeed they
are the same group of people spoken of in verse 9, these who have
come out of great tribulation, out of the Great Tribulation. It's the
totality of all the believers that will ever believe on the Lord
Jesus Christ
Thank you for sharing that question. Good night."
In saying the 144,000 are "...the totality of all the believers that
will ever believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" Camping is following the
Augustine interpretation of Revelation 7: 1-8. Camping is
emphasizing the numerology of 12 x 12 and the 144,000 more than
Augustine may have done. However, Origen who influenced the broad
Amillennial allegorical method of interpretation used by Augustine,
Harold Camping and the Amillennialist View of Prophecy
Posted : 4 Jun, 2011 03:17 PM
Twosparrows said:
I put the Catholic, Calvinism and Harold Camping views of end time prophecy in the same category as Nostredomus, you know...kinda interesting but missing on a the majority of points.
James replies:
Where do I begin?
First off I am guessing this is just a guilt by association routine to actually lump in Nostradamus in with various views of Eschatology.
Noting that you did NOT MENTION your OWN view, and just lumped in a pile of views to denigrate others without any specifics, I will try to be specific FOR you.....
There are a variety of views of the End times, or Eschatology.
If you look at church history, and try to determine the majority view for two thousand years, it would come under what we now call Amillenialism.
What Halfback and you did not mention was that the Reformed churches have mostly been Amill, but some are also POST-mill.
Meaning that We Christians will Christianize the whole Earth, for a thousand years, and THEN Christ will return.
You said "Calvinism and Harold Camping", and that doesn't mean much because Calvinism is only five points, and none of them are about the End times.
You have Baptist churches that are Calvinists, but they take the popular Pre-mill dispensationalist view of the End times.
So, just throwing in the word "Calvinism" does not cut it twosparrows.
Camping is a wackjob, so I will ignore whatever he says.
Halfback never provided any evidence for his claim, so I will ignore that also.
Harold Camping and the Amillennialist View of Prophecy
Posted : 4 Jun, 2011 04:10 PM
"You said "Calvinism and Harold Camping", and that doesn't mean much because Calvinism is only five points, and none of them are about the End times."
Thats right, Calvinist amillennialism does not deal much with the end times. Dispensationalist pre-millennialism does deal with the end times but it is messed up by its starting assumptions that Israel must always be physical Israel, that God has two different peoples, the Jews and the "church," and that scripture must always be interpreted literally.
Only a very few Christians in the past few years have dealt with the end times without using a dispensatrionalist, amillinnial or post-millennial or preterist theology. The end time prophecies remained sealed up for most.
It was in the early fall of 1993 that one night I happened to hear Harold Camping somehow at the extreme end of the AM frequency.
I listened to him a number of times after that. He was talking about his time spans in the Old Testament, and his numerology about what numbers represent, such as salvation, etc. Camping did not get into end time Bible prophecy, such as Matthew 24, II Thessalonians 2, I Corinthians 15, or the Book of Revelation. That one Open Forum question I quoted is typical of his method of interpreting end time prophecy. The broad allegorical method is a part of the amillennialist mindset, since it uses broad allegorical interpretation of a scripture which has many specific bits of information. Amillennialism was invented by Origen and Augustine long before dispensationalist literalism began in 1830-1890. Calvinists took it over from Augustine because Calvin said that they could get their theology from Augustine.
In 1993 Camping did not seem to believe in a tribulation period. he did not talk about one. For his May 21, 2011 prediction he did make use of a strange five month tribulation.
The question is whether an amillennialist does believe in a literal tribulation period. And I wonder if this failure to believe in a literal period of great tribulation (Matthew 24: 21) might not signal a sliding toward dominionism by the amillennialists - which would suggest they do not believe in a final period of great tribulation, but believe in increasing control over the earth by the dominionist "Christians," who would be maybe worse as far as having the spirit of anti-Christ than the Israel-first crowd?
Camping is important because he is an example of a minor Christian celebrity who went wrong in a different way than did dispensationalist celebrities like Hal Lindsey or Tim LaHaye. Just as Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye did not understand end time Bible prophecy very well,because of their dfispensationalist theology, so Camping also did not understand, love or respect it. But Camping was an orthodox Dutch Calvinist with an amillennial view on end time prophecy. Apparently some time before 1993 he was not necessarily a "kook." He went wrong over the years. He said in the last five years or so that Christ will not literally return to earth, and that the lost are to be annihilated.
