Thread: The Most ignored basic teaching in the Bible......
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The Most ignored basic teaching in the Bible......
Posted : 29 May, 2011 10:02 PM
I think the subject in Scripture that is most fundamental, and most foundational, and most ignored by Modern American Christians is The Fall.
It means nothing to their theology, and if you ask them about it, they will let you know this right away.
It falls under trivia of the Bible for them.
If you question them about it you get, "Oh....yeah, well Adam and Eve, they messed up."
Oh THEY....messed up? Were there any effects from this? "uh, yeah, they got thrown out of that garden pronto!"
I used to debate a mystic type who denied original sin, and he told me that there was no way Adam and Eve's sin effected us in any way.
I told him that Adam and Eve were chosen by God to be our perfect representatives, and that WE would have done the same thing, and because of that, their sin IS our sin!
He said that was not true.
I told him to read the particular and specific curses that God gave to Adam and Eve, and then explain to me why since that moment, every single man and woman born on Earth, get the EXACT SAME punishments?
Romans 5:12,19 - sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned... by the one man�s disobedience the many were made sinners
The fact is, Adam was told by God that he would DIE spiritually the DAY he ate of the fruit, and that is what happened, and not only that, but ALL of Adam's descendents are BORN spiritually DEAD, and the New Testament describes ALL mankind as spiritually DEAD. Not wounded, or hurt, but DEAD.
Ephesians 2:1-2, 4-5 - And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked... But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ�by grace you have been saved
Scripture also presents all mankind as not only totally spiritually dead, but with a will that is enslaved to sin.
John 8:34 - Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin."
Titus 3:3 - For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.
Galatians 4:8-9 - Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?
I could go on and post fifty more verses, but the point is, Scripture says that fallen mankind is TOTALLY spiritually dead, with a will enslaved to sin, and the Modern American Christian, Thinks that some people are searching for God, and that we all have a FREE will, and that we have the ability to repent and trust in Jesus. As if The Fall never even happened!
Now, if you say you are a Christian and you don't believe Genesis as it is written, as if it were a fable with a moral or two for a purpose, then I can understand you glossing over The Fall. BUT......If you take the Bible as it is written, then Genesis is narrative. It records what actually happened. Adam and Eve were REAL people, and they were the federal HEAD of the human race. They sinned, they died Spiritually that very day, and ALL of the punishments they received that day, were transmitted to ALL of their descendents, namely ALL MANKIND.
So, here we have the Word of God TELLING us what KIND of beings we are, and most Modern American Christians, don't have a clue because they IGNORE Genesis, and the passages in the New Testament that describe fallen mankind.
The result is, the Average American Christian has a RADICALLY HIGHER view of man, than what the bible plainly says.
The Most ignored basic teaching in the Bible......
Posted : 30 May, 2011 04:37 AM
James, where do you get your 'facts'? Define "Modern American Christians" and "Average American Christian". Are they those who are not Reformed? I don't know of any Christians that have a "RADICALLY HIGHER view of man, than what the bible plainly says", or who believe the Garden was a fable or trivia or whatever else you muster up against those who don't hold to your view, including myself. Is it those who believe you can seek the Lord? I guess this has been a Biblical belief for centuries.
1 Chronicles 28:9 - And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: IF THOUG SEEK HIM, HE WILL BE FOUND OF THEE; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
Isaiah 55:6 - SEEK YE THE LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Deuteronomy 4:29 - But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find [him], if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
2 Chronicles 12:14 - [Speaking of King Rehoboam] And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the LORD.
The Most ignored basic teaching in the Bible......
Posted : 30 May, 2011 06:00 AM
James,
You say "..If you take the Bible as it is written," then add words to the original text. Isn't that a bit hypocritical? Perhaps you are so inDoctrinated you don't even realize you do it.
Btw, there is much MUCH more going on at the fall than you seem to realize. However; I agree most Christians don't think about it much.
The Most ignored basic teaching in the Bible......
Posted : 30 May, 2011 09:28 AM
James said:
If you take the Bible as it is written, then Genesis is narrative. It records what actually happened. Adam and Eve were REAL people, and they were the federal HEAD of the human race. They sinned, they died Spiritually that very day, and ALL of the punishments they received that day, were transmitted to ALL of their descendents, namely ALL MANKIND.
Twosparrows said:
James,
You say "..If you take the Bible as it is written," then add words to the original text. Isn't that a bit hypocritical? Perhaps you are so inDoctrinated you don't even realize you do it.
Btw, there is much MUCH more going on at the fall than you seem to realize. However; I agree most Christians don't think about it much.
James replies:
Well, what part of what I said about Genesis, is something you think is wrong? "they were real people"?
"The federal head of the human race"? "they died spiritually that day"? "all of their punishments were transmitted
to all of mankind"?
Please be specific and show me where I am wrong.
I think the point you probably are not familiar with is federal headship. It is something reasoned from Scripture, but it is well thought out. I am not "indoctrinated" as you put it. It is just that Reformed thinking covers aspects of the Bible, that perhaps you have not thought about.
The Most ignored basic teaching in the Bible......
Posted : 30 May, 2011 11:02 AM
71 said:
James, where do you get your 'facts'? Define "Modern American Christians" and "Average American Christian". Are they those who are not Reformed?
James replies:
Yes. As for where do I get my opinion from.....I have been a Christian for 25 years. I talk to baptists, Methodists, Calvary Chapel, Pentecostals, Holiness, Church of Christ, and Christians who attend non-denominational churches. This is my opinion after talking with them and listening to them over the years.
And yes, these Christians are not reformed, because Reformed Christians are a minority at this time in Church history.
71 said:
I don't know of any Christians that have a "RADICALLY HIGHER view of man, than what the bible plainly says"
James replies:
If you believe that:
1. The Fall did not spiritually kill Adam and ALL mankind since then.
2. That fallen man has the ability to repent and trust in Jesus.
3. Some people are seeking for God right now.
Then you have a RADICALLY HIGHER view of man, than the Bible does.
so you not only DO know Christians that believe those three things, but you do yourself.
71 said:
, or who believe the Garden was a fable or trivia or whatever else you muster up against those who don't hold to your view, including myself. Is it those who believe you can seek the Lord? I guess this has been a Biblical belief for centuries.
1 Chronicles 28:9 - And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: IF THOUG SEEK HIM, HE WILL BE FOUND OF THEE; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
Isaiah 55:6 - SEEK YE THE LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Deuteronomy 4:29 - But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find [him], if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
2 Chronicles 12:14 - [Speaking of King Rehoboam] And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the LORD.
James replies:
see, you did what GentleGiant did, and what others on this group have done.
I SHOW YOU Scriptures that SAY that fallen mankind does NOT have the ability, and THEN you post scriptures that are commands and have the word "if" or "whosoever" in them as proof fallen man has the ability!
Not one of the Scriptures you posted, say that even ONE person has the Ability to do those commands.
It just says, "if" and "seek". I understand it might be shocking to you to consider that God commands things that people don't have the ability to do, but we humans do this too.
The Gospel itself is a command. "Repent!" is not a suggestion
But then we have Jesus saying "NO ONE CAN come to me unless the Father draws them..." (John 6)
So, 71. I hear you on me saying "the average American Christian", because that is JUST my opinion. It is my honest opinion based upon my experience. But, the Bible saying that The Fall, killed us all is NOT just my opinion. I have two thousand years of church history, and the plain words of Scripture that agree.
The Most ignored basic teaching in the Bible......
Posted : 30 May, 2011 11:02 AM
71 said:
James, where do you get your 'facts'? Define "Modern American Christians" and "Average American Christian". Are they those who are not Reformed?
James replies:
Yes. As for where do I get my opinion from.....I have been a Christian for 25 years. I talk to baptists, Methodists, Calvary Chapel, Pentecostals, Holiness, Church of Christ, and Christians who attend non-denominational churches. This is my opinion after talking with them and listening to them over the years.
And yes, these Christians are not reformed, because Reformed Christians are a minority at this time in Church history.
71 said:
I don't know of any Christians that have a "RADICALLY HIGHER view of man, than what the bible plainly says"
James replies:
If you believe that:
1. The Fall did not spiritually kill Adam and ALL mankind since then.
2. That fallen man has the ability to repent and trust in Jesus.
3. Some people are seeking for God right now.
Then you have a RADICALLY HIGHER view of man, than the Bible does.
so you not only DO know Christians that believe those three things, but you do yourself.
71 said:
, or who believe the Garden was a fable or trivia or whatever else you muster up against those who don't hold to your view, including myself. Is it those who believe you can seek the Lord? I guess this has been a Biblical belief for centuries.
1 Chronicles 28:9 - And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: IF THOUG SEEK HIM, HE WILL BE FOUND OF THEE; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
Isaiah 55:6 - SEEK YE THE LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Deuteronomy 4:29 - But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find [him], if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
2 Chronicles 12:14 - [Speaking of King Rehoboam] And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the LORD.
James replies:
see, you did what GentleGiant did, and what others on this group have done.
I SHOW YOU Scriptures that SAY that fallen mankind does NOT have the ability, and THEN you post scriptures that are commands and have the word "if" or "whosoever" in them as proof fallen man has the ability!
Not one of the Scriptures you posted, say that even ONE person has the Ability to do those commands.
It just says, "if" and "seek". I understand it might be shocking to you to consider that God commands things that people don't have the ability to do, but we humans do this too.
The Gospel itself is a command. "Repent!" is not a suggestion
But then we have Jesus saying "NO ONE CAN come to me unless the Father draws them..." (John 6)
So, 71. I hear you on me saying "the average American Christian", because that is JUST my opinion. It is my honest opinion based upon my experience. But, the Bible saying that The Fall, killed us all is NOT just my opinion. I have two thousand years of church history, and the plain words of Scripture that agree.
The Most ignored basic teaching in the Bible......
Posted : 30 May, 2011 04:02 PM
James wrote - "Yes. As for where do I get my opinion from.....I have been a Christian for 25 years. I talk to baptists, Methodists, Calvary Chapel, Pentecostals, Holiness, Church of Christ, and Christians who attend non-denominational churches. This is my opinion after talking with them and listening to them over the years."
So it's your opinion. Maybe you aught to say so, then. You write it as fact.
James wrote - "If you believe that: 1. The Fall did not spiritually kill Adam and ALL mankind since then. 2. That fallen man has the ability to repent and trust in Jesus. 3. Some people are seeking for God right now. Then you have a RADICALLY HIGHER view of man, than the Bible does. so you not only DO know Christians that believe those three things, but you do yourself."
#1. I believe Scripture. God warned Adam he would die if ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He died spiritually, which separated him from God. We are all born into sin as a result; all separated from God. No need to direct your #1 toward me. #2. I've offered you Scripture that shows man is given the responsibility to make the choice to either follow Christ or walk away from Him. You reject them because you claim to have more verses than I do. As if that's a good reason to reject Scripture. #3. And again, I've given you Scripture showing that man is indeed capable of seeking the Lord. The Lord even asks man to seek Him. But noooooo. It can't say that, because it goes against your theory.
James wrote - "see, you did what GentleGiant did, and what others on this group have done. I SHOW YOU Scriptures that SAY that fallen mankind does NOT have the ability, and THEN you post scriptures that are commands and have the word "if" or "whosoever" in them as proof fallen man has the ability! Not one of the Scriptures you posted, say that even ONE person has the Ability to do those commands. It just says, "if" and "seek". I understand it might be shocking to you to consider that God commands things that people don't have the ability to do, but we humans do this too."
Oh C'mon, James. Because the verse has "if" in it, it makes it void to the person God is speaking to? And because the verse has "if" in it, God is wasting words because people can't do what He commands? You really believe God makes commands of people that people are incapable of obeying? And what for? Kicks? So He can sit on the throne at people because He gives a command that people are unable to do? Ridiculous!
If man does not seek after God, it is because man chose not too, not because God made a command they were unable to do. And the verses I gave you earlier do not say what you believe. God says, if you "seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find [him], if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul." That's God's word to man. It's a promise to those who seek Him. They will find Him. You pervert that verse by saying man doesn't have the ability to do what God offers because the verse says "if" and "seek". Your belief makes that verse worthless. And because it doesn't line up with your theology, what else are you gonna do with it? You certainly can't accept it. David wrote in Psalm 53:2, "God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were [any] that did understand, that did seek God." If man doesn't have the capability of seeking God, then again, this is a waste of words. Why would God look to see if any seek after Him if He created them to not seek after Him? You make God look psychotic.
Take a look at Acts 17:27 "That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:" Another verse with "if" and "seek". But hey, what a mixed up message, right? Man can't seek the Lord because Reformed Theology says so.
James wrote - "The Gospel itself is a command. "Repent!" is not a suggestion."
No kidding. But according to you people can't respond to Jesus' command to "repent". So why did He preach repentance? For what reason? If God smacks a believer with the Holy Ghost which makes them want to believe and repent, and to hell with the rest, there is no reason to preach repentance. It's a complete waste of time, because God is going to save who He created for salvation, period. Your theory doesn't even need a preacher. God's got them saved from His creation of them in eternity past.
The Most ignored basic teaching in the Bible......
Posted : 30 May, 2011 07:25 PM
71 said:
Oh C'mon, James. Because the verse has "if" in it, it makes it void to the person God is speaking to?
James replies:
No, the OFFER is never invalid. But because an offer is made, does NOT mean anyone has the ability to fulfill it.
"If anyone on CDFF gives me ten million dollars, I will build them a house."
There. That is a valid offer with the word "if" in it, and NO ONE on CDFF has the ABILITY to fulfill it.
71 said:
And because the verse has "if" in it, God is wasting words because people can't do what He commands?
James replies:
LOST people, spiritually DEAD people, can't obey His commands.
Those He makes alive, CAN and DO.
71 said:
You really believe God makes commands of people that people are incapable of obeying?
James replies:
Command: Repent and believe in Jesus.
Jesus says: "NO ONE CAN come to me UNLESS the Father draws them."
Jesus says this Four different ways, and then Paul says it six different ways!
71 said:
And what for? Kicks? So He can sit on the throne at people because He gives a command that people are unable to do? Ridiculous!
James replies:
It is necessary to accomplish His purposes:
Rom 9:19-24 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
71 said:
If man does not seek after God, it is because man chose not too,
James replies:
NO ONE SEEKS FOR GOD. Paul said NO ONE, he did say some do, or hey, it is your choice.
Romans 3:10-12 - "no one seeks for God."
71 said:
not because God made a command they were unable to do. And the verses I gave you earlier do not say what you believe. God says, if you "seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find [him], if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul." That's God's word to man. It's a promise to those who seek Him.
James replies:
AND.....the ONLY people who seek God are those that have been born again by the Holy Spirit.
NO ONE SEEKS FOR GOD.
John 6:44,65 - "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.�
When Jesus said, "Many are called but few are chosen" He was talking about what you and I are talking about!
71 said:
They will find Him. You pervert that verse by saying man doesn't have the ability to do what God offers because the verse says "if" and "seek". Your belief makes that verse worthless. And because it doesn't line up with your theology, what else are you gonna do with it? You certainly can't accept it. David wrote in Psalm 53:2, "God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were [any] that did understand, that did seek God." If man doesn't have the capability of seeking God, then again, this is a waste of words. Why would God look to see if any seek after Him if He created them to not seek after Him? You make God look psychotic.
Take a look at Acts 17:27 "That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:" Another verse with "if" and "seek". But hey, what a mixed up message, right? Man can't seek the Lord because Reformed Theology says so.
James replies:
1 Corinthians 2:14 - The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
NOT ABLE......
James wrote - "The Gospel itself is a command. "Repent!" is not a suggestion."
71 said:
No kidding. But according to you people can't respond to Jesus' command to "repent". So why did He preach repentance?
James replies:
Many are called but few are chosen.
71 continues:
For what reason? If God smacks a believer with the Holy Ghost which makes them want to believe and repent, and to hell with the rest, there is no reason to preach repentance.
James replies:
Yes, there is.
71 said:
It's a complete waste of time, because God is going to save who He created for salvation, period. Your theory doesn't even need a preacher. God's got them saved from His creation of them in eternity past.
James replies:
If you are talking about election, you are talking about the ENDS of all things.
But God is also God of the MEANS. God could have, if He so chose, to save everyone He was going to on their 21sr birthday at high noon. We would just wait around till noon on their 21st birthday and find out.
But God has CHOSEN the foolishness of preaching! So, we share the Gospel with people, we leave bible tracts on park benches and invite the neighborhood children to vacation Bible school. God is SOVEREIGN and HE chooses the ends AND the Means. If you think about this way 71, you can share the Gospel with confidence because you KNOW God WILL save SOME!
The Most ignored basic teaching in the Bible......
Posted : 30 May, 2011 07:51 PM
James,
Have you ever wondered why you post scriptures until the cows come home and no one believes you?
It is because you post scriptures that do not back your claim. If you want to be believeable this is the kind of Scripture we need, at least two :
The scriptures must say man does not have the ability to respond to the Holy Spirit when the Spirit is working on their hearts and minds.and ultimately accept or reject the drawing of the Holy Spirit (btw interesting enough...the only unpardonable sin, that should tell you something right there!)
The Most ignored basic teaching in the Bible......
Posted : 30 May, 2011 08:24 PM
Thank you, Two! I would love to see a verse also that says man doesn't have the ability to respond to the Holy Spirit, whether it be to heed or ignore.
There is Scripture plainly stating, no explanation necessary, that man can resist the Holy Spirit. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I've posted it here so many times... "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye." Unpardonable sin? How can one commit the unpardonable sin unless one is given the opportunity to do so?
at people because He gives a command that people are unable to do? Ridiculous!