It is true the Bible teaches Election, however does it teach Unconditional Election?
Let's take a look;
We know 3 things about Election from the Bible:
1) It is God who chooses
2) We are not chosen on the basis of works
3) We know the Greek definition for the word Elect is to 'mark out' for a particular purpose.
Sorry Reformers; that's it; that is all there is; the rest is man made doctrine.
Who is to say it is unconditional? Surely God doesn't use a lottery system to save some. And who is to say because one is Elect that God will not allow them to refuse.
God knows who will believe which is more plausible than saying God does not know so just chooses some and makes them believe.
It is possible that Election could be based on a number of things; for instance ; Those who will believe, the nature of a person, the prayers of others are all valid possibilities! The only invalid possibilities are to say it is about works becsuse the Bible days as much. Or God created some to save and some to go to hell, then why would they be 'Marked Out' for salvation.
When something is "Marked Out" it is usually done with a purpose in mind, other wise you just choose every tenth one.
Even the definition of Elect ; to 'mark out' seems to denote it is Not unconditional, but rather conditional. However
God was going to destroy the world and kill everybody and everything in a flood. Then, according to Genesis, he changed his mind and saved Noah and his family.
That's a weird story, when you consider that God is "all knowing." How could an all knowing God face a decision???? There is no possibility for decision in a world where everything past and future is known. There would only be something like fate, in which he would already have always known that Noah would survive in the ark and that he would not drown the "entire" world. That would imply that no decision making process would take place. That would totally eliminate the ability of mankind to have free will, which is one of the pivotal foundations of the story behind the purpose of why we were created. I don't understand this well, but here's my hypothesis:
Time travel stories consistently land on the theme that changing a single, minute event in the past will alter the future incredibly. A great example is one episode of the Simpsons when Homer went back in time to the dinosaur era, for only, like 2 seconds, then returned and his family was rich and donuts rained from the sky. According to that multiple timeline theory, a theory based on the consequences of free will in a world that has come completely unhinged from fate, there are infinite possibilities. Whatever your idea of infinity is, it's multiplied by infinites of powers if you consider all the infinite timelines that could develop from any of the infinite numbers of events that could occur during the infinite timeline of everything that has ever happened and ever will happen.
My guess is that God knows all that. However, it must be up to us to decide the timeline among the infinite timelines to follow.
If there was only one timeline, only one possibility, only one potential elect to be saved, then Jesus Christ wouldn't have died on the cross for all our sins (probably. Maybe :). More likely, he would've died for the sins of the elect, since everybody else is going to burn anyway. The disciples wouldn't have been given the task of preaching about the Lord is God was going to do all the work regardless. But the Bible said that they were to be fishers of men, not "lucky ones" and that whoever believes in the Lord shall not perish. Whoever implies that the elect could be anybody, not merely the preordained.
I think that God has foreseen infinites of timelines in which every single person in the world becomes saved as well as the current timeline in which my uncle Moe, among others, died unsaved.
Insofar as I believe in that theory, discussions over conditional and unconditional election are irrelevant. God, just as he did with Noah, can change his mind and choose to save whomever he pleases according to any set of circumstances.
However foreknowledge does not 'cancel out' free will, it is merely knowing the choices of others before they choose. As for fate and multiple time lines; I believe God knowing the choices of man can easily manipulate 'fate' to travel along His desired time line without the removal of free will except on occasion. After all those who drown in the flood basically had their free will taken away when they drown, however they were free to life as they wished until the day it rained. As for God changing His mind, it is just a human saying to describe how God treats man according to the actions of man. God is always true to Himself and unchanging, it is us who are all over the map!
Great Illustrations, I loved them! You could not have put in a more plainer sense. It was stated so that all would understand if they had an ear to hear. Thank You!
This is an interesting post. I agree that election is conditional, and that it can be or is based on a number of things, though I believe as far as salvation goes it is based on the condition of belief. The question asked, "However on what?" Could it be as simple as the response by man to the purpose of God [salvation and the purpose God has for each individual]? Maybe it's not even always based on the response of man, as God can use anyone He desires to fulfill His purpose. Also, the angels are called "elect", and God uses them for His purpose, so I think being elect is not something limited to salvation only, as the angels are not 'elect' based on salvation. Christ is called 'elect' as the chief cornerstone, Who provided salvation, but not Himself needing salvation. I think this throws a curve into those who believe that "elect" refers only to those who are 'marked out' or chosen for salvation.
Great post Saved; it brings to the forefront how subtly reformation theology combines election and salvation into one. It is done with one sentence of logic: 'God accomplishes what He purposes to do, He cannot fail; therefore those He elects, He saves.' The fault in this logic is it presumes man has lost their free will to choose in the garden of Eden.
Glad you brought up Angels being called Elect, cause some fell and God is No failure! Apparently Angels have free will also.....kinda gives me a whole new respect for the Angels that hung in there with God!
As for what determines how we choose how we choose...wow, is that ever a can of worms! A can of worms reformation theology takes full advantage of by taking the position ; since it is not logically understood, it is has to be error.
Two, I think what determines how we choose is pretty much individualized, but having in common the realization that we need a Saviour. Maybe choosing, in part, has to do with how it's presented. I also think it may have a lot to do with where you are in life. Maybe it's the events in your life that lead you to choose. Before I met the Lord, I was witnessed to a few times. I rejected Christ in those instances. Not sure I can tell you why. I didn't have a life considered envious by others, so it was not that my life was great as it was, and in no need of anything greater. For some, and most likely myself, God allows us at times to sink to the deepest pit where we find ourselves suffocating and realize that breathing is a gift we can't do without. You definitely don't need a message telling you you're going to Hell, because as far as you're concerned, you're already there. Some need to be wooed to Christ. Because Christ draws all men to Him [John 12:32], and through many ways, but usually through those who are already saved, we are all given the choice to draw closer or pass on by. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. I do believe though, that whatever it is that leads you to choose Christ, becomes a testimony to lead others. God uses you right where you are. You are elect in that sense. Marked out for His purpose.
It sounds as though you believe in 'Reincarnation'
Could I think that God has foreseen infinites of timelines in which every single person in the world becomes saved as well as the current timeline in which my uncle Moe, among others, died unsaved.
If every single person is going to be saved,then why was it necessary for Yehoshua to die such a horrible death.
Why not just save Yehoshua the pain and save them.
It is true the Bible teaches Election, however does it teach Unconditional Election?
Let's take a look;
We know 3 things about Election from the Bible:
1) It is God who chooses
2) We are not chosen on the basis of works
3) We know the Greek definition for the word Elect is to 'mark out' for a particular purpose.
James replies:
You are right, God IS the one who chooses whom He will have mercy on, and whom He will give justice to.
Paul teaches this exact point in Romans 9.
You are also right on point number 2, it is NOT because of works.
Paul teaches in Romans 9 that God choose them BEFORE they born, and it was NOT because of anything they had done.
Paul goes on to say, it was ONLY because of God's choice in electing Jacob and not Esau.
Now, on your third point, I disagree with entirely. I think you are playing "critique the translators" and you have NO ability to do so. I am going out on a very thick limb here, and say that you do NOT know Greek, Twosparrows. That you are not even fluent in it, much less an expert.
IF...the correct definition of the Greek word translated as "elect" would have meant "marked out" then THAT is what our Bibles would say.
When you elect someone, you CHOOSE THEM. THAT is why the word elect was chosen by teams of experts in the Greek language.
And besides that, you have the words: Chosen, appointed, destined, predestined, etc.
So, no Twosparrows, "marked out" does not cut it, according to all the experts in Greek for any English translation.
Twosparrows continues:
Sorry Reformers; that's it; that is all there is; the rest is man made doctrine.
James replies:
well, your statements one and two, ARE the entire doctrine of unconditional election, but please continue......
Twosparrows continues:
Who is to say it is unconditional? Surely God doesn't use a lottery system to save some. And who is to say because one is Elect that God will not allow them to refuse.
James replies:
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
I don't know why, but almost every time a Christian objects to God being sovereign in salvation, they use the word "arbitrary".
Just because we don't know the reason for something that God has done, we decide it must be arbitrary???
God does EVERYTHING after the counsel of His OWN WILL.
Remember?
Twosparrows continues:
God knows who will believe which is more plausible than saying God does not know so just chooses some and makes them believe.
James replies:
Well, here is a moment of honesty! It is "more plausible" that God just knows who will believe in the future, and he just 'elects' them because they had faith!
I agree with you Arminianism is how we fallen sinful creatures naturally think. Of course we have free will! Of course I really saved myself, because after all...I....chose Jesus!
The problem is, Romans 9, John 6, and in the book of Acts, and in Isaiah, etc, the Bible PLAINLY says that GOD saves whoever He decided to save, and it was NOT because of anything they would do in life.
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Rom 9:11-13 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Twosparrows, the above two portions of Scripture ALONE should be enough for you to drop the "its more plausible that God just elects people because He saw they would have faith".
Twosparrows said:
It is possible that Election could be based on a number of things; for instance ; Those who will believe, the nature of a person, the prayers of others are all valid possibilities! The only invalid possibilities are to say it is about works becsuse the Bible days as much. Or God created some to save and some to go to hell, then why would they be 'Marked Out' for salvation.
James replies:
Not true! The MAIN reason you are arguing against, is that God is the who CHOOSES whom He will have mercy on, and whom He will give justice to!
THAT is what you are denying!
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
You don't want to BE the clay that the potter makes for HIS OWN USE AND PURPOSES. You want to be the POTTER, and the truth is GOD is the potter, and WE are the clay!
You want it to be about a man or woman's will...........
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Twosparrows continues:
When something is "Marked Out" it is usually done with a purpose in mind, other wise you just choose every tenth one.
Even the definition of Elect ; to 'mark out' seems to denote it is Not unconditional, but rather conditional. However
on what? That seems not to be revealed.
James replies:
Seems not to be revealed????
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, ACCORDING TO THE PLEASURE OF HIS WILL.
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Isa 43:6-7 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; Even every one that is called by my name: FOR I HAVE CREATED HIM FOR MY GLORY, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
Rom 9:22-24 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: AND THAT HE MIGHT MAKE KNOWN THE RICHES OF HIS GLORY ON VESSELS OF MERCY, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Eph 2:4-7 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: THAT IN THE AGES TO COME HE MIGHT SHOW THE EXCEEDING RICHES OF HIS GRACE IN HIS KINDNESS TOWARD US IN JESUS CHRIST.
Okay, lets review.
okay just using the 5 portions of Scripture above,
we DROP the ole' "because God looked into the future and saw who would have faith", and instead say that
God elected people because of:
"the pleasure of His will"
"God's own purpose"
"For God's own glory"
"To make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy"
(My favorite!)
and finally God chooses whom He will save so that:
THAT IN THE AGES TO COME HE MIGHT SHOW THE EXCEEDING RICHES OF HIS GRACE IN HIS KINDNESS TOWARD US IN JESUS CHRIST.
Original Word: ἐκλεκτός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: eklektos
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-lek-tos')
Short Definition: chosen, elect, choice, select
Definition: chosen out, elect, choice, select, sometimes as subst: of those chosen out by God for the rendering of special service to Him (of the Hebrew race, particular Hebrews, the Messiah, and the Christians).
Cognate: 1588 eklekt�s (an adjective, derived from 1586 /ekl�gomai, "to select, choose," also used as a substantive/noun) � properly, selected (chosen from, out of), especially as a deeply personal choice � literally "chosen, out of a personal preference (intention)." See 1586 (eklegomai).
Typically, 1588 /eklekt�s ("select, chosen") describes people who choose to follow the Lord, i.e. become God's choice by freely receiving faith (4102 /p�stis) from Him. Accordingly, these two terms are directly connected (see Titus 1:1; Lk 18:7,8).
Word Origin
from ekleg�
Definition
select, by impl. favorite
NASB Word Usage
choice (2), choice man (1), chosen (1), chosen (9), chosen one (1), elect (8).
