I am told that one can not be saved without accepting the doctrine of the Trinity, yet even the most capable theological minds on the planet debate over it -- not only as regards the understanding of it, but also as to whether or not it can even be derived from Scripture! Did the repentent thief on the cross know about the doctrine of the Trinity? When traditional peoples of the Pacific Islands are converted, for example, what is their perception of the doctrine of the Trinity? What about the average Christian who would seem to have little interest in the perplexing doctrinal aspects of this teaching? How important can it be if the majority of Christians have little if any knowledge of the issues which surround it? Can they really be said to believe it if they are basically ignorant concerning the biblical justification for it, as well as the many seeming contradictions in Scripture which are associated with it? Why is this teaching regarded as a fundamental truth when even the greatest Christian scholars admit to numerous technical difficulties with regard to it?
Answer
The matter is highly complex and abstract. In fact, it took the church until A.D. 451 (at the Council of Chalecedon) to finalize its formal statements most of these things issues. Even today the Eastern Orthodox Church dissents from the Roman Catholic Church and most Protestant churches regarding the nature of the economic Trinity.
Let me say very clearly that I do not believe that understanding the doctrine of the Trinity (ontological or economic) is essential for salvation. In fact, I would wager that he is a rare person who understands this doctrine upon conversion.
Nevertheless, I do think it is very important that we as Christians understand at least that there is only one God, and that he exists in three distinct persons who are not identical with each other. I also think it's important that we understand Christ to be one person with two natures. These ideas are important because they have practical implications for:
The way we pray -- To whom can we pray? Is it more effective to pray to the Father than to the Son? Is there more than one God?
The way we worship -- Who can we name as the object(s) of our worship? What truths can we proclaim in his/their praise?
The way we think about our relationships with each other and with God -- In our union with Christ, are we united only to a man? Only to God? Only to a god? Can we become gods too?
Moreover, our perception of issues related to the Trinity and the hypostatic union greatly influences how we read the Bible. It affects our interpretation of many passages, and therefore it affects the applications we draw from those passages. It also affects our understanding of the Bible's (and of God's) reliability because it addresses areas of seeming contradiction. Because these issues are so fundamental to Christian life, I place great importance on them.
Certainly, some of the more technical aspects of these doctrines step rather speculatively on ground only safely trod by God. But there are some fundamental aspects of these doctrines with which no Christian scholar disagrees, and which are not terribly speculative -- namely the that God exists in three persons and one essence, and that Christ is one person with two natures, being fully God and fully man. I would hope to see great tolerance for those ignorant/agnostic in these areas. A lack of understanding of these doctrines deprives one of rich opportunities for growth and worship, but it does not threaten souls. However, there can be great danger in holding to misconceived ideas about these matters. For example, those who reject the deity and/or humanity of Christ cannot be saved (John 20:30-31; 1 John 2:22; 4:2-3; 2 John 7). In this regard I differentiate rather significantly between passive ignorance and active rejection.
I suspect that while most Christians don't think about these matters much, most also assume a great number of things that depend upon these doctrines (e.g. Jesus is a sufficient and reliable savior; it is good to pray to Jesus; baptism is to be done in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). I also suspect that most Christians know a good deal more about these doctrines than they realize. Consider a parallel in grammar: most people who speak English can't parse a sentence and its constituent parts, but they can converse quite well. They recognize good grammar even though they can't define it.
I agree, Two. Thanks for the post, james. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And without controversy Great is the Mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, Received Up into glory. ~~~~~~~~~~ (1Timothy 3:16) COOL!
haha i can't help myself i had to stop by here tonight and i am glad i did,no worries i am still preparing for other post,or not? i read what one girl wrote and she is right this is useless ,,i have done my job so maybe i will post the studies i am doing or not no matter this matter needs addressing now
okay James sorry but these verses you quoted are not really in the old text,, that text would be the SHEM TOV text,,that would be the Hebrew Mattithyahu text, i have a friend who is a Hebrew scholar in Yisra'el if you have any questions i can hook you up no problem,he actually worked on the Dead Sea Scrolls,so if you need an expert to believe the older text
so this verse 19 of Mattithyahu is not really in the older text you can look it up and it is not there,,SHEM TOV text check it out
so even if you will not except this which i am going to go ahead say you will not,,
even if you can't except this,,if this was really said by MESSIAH to go and immerse in the Name of the FATHER SON AND HOLY SPIRIT then why is it that in Acts 8:16-17?????
16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
hmmmmmm well now it appears that Peter and John forgot so quickly all about the FATHER and HOLY SPIRIT part cause this Scripture says they only immersed them in the Name of YAHSHUA,,hmmmmmm
now let me see here if the OLDER Hebrew text does not have the words "immerse in the Name of the FATHER SON AND HOLY SPIRIT" and Peter and John did not mention it either then well what s going on here ??? you know what i bet it's just a translation error no worries though it does not hurt that FATHER SON HOLY SPIRIT thing you got going
Surely you know "older" does not equate to more accurate? I am aware of a number of verses that may or may not have been added to the text at a later date. However this becomes a mute point when considering this verse because of similar verses found else where in the Bible. Either the Bible is God breathed or it isn't, you start down a slippery slope when you build doctrine by discounting verses that are not found in a particular manuscripts.
show me other places it says FATHER SON HOLY SPIRIT,,,why is it slippery ? you have the SPIRIT to discern what is truth,,if you pray and study, will you not be lead by the SPIRIT to the truth,,i am here to tell you brother this was not only older but written in Hebrew and you look it for yourself please please don't just take my words for it,,look it up yourself ,,,you will see it was added in later and i know of a few more that added as well so why is it added what goal is it completing by being here what has come from it???,,
it is really words that are added,,in the originals or "back in those days" hahaha they had no verses so we by even breaking it up into verses somewhat disrupt the flow of Scripture cause sometimes you have verse breaks right in the middle of sentences and thoughts ,,i know why we have broken them up into verses and yes it helps to reference but some people read the Scripture in a only one a day way,,so if they come to a point were the thought was broken by us adding in breaks and they go off and meditate all day on half a thought then they are getting half a thought learning ,,,and you know as well as i that many christians read the Scripture like this,,taking a verse or two and having devotional on it and going about their way,,so if they are studying words that are not in Scripture especially these ,,,look at what crazy damage these words can do,,look at what they already have done,,,they are not in the older Hebrew text and so where did they come from??? do you want to just say oh well i can't go there cause it is too slippery hahaha brother life is slippery and we have to take up our cross daily to run with MESSIAH and we are to be priest and kings and a light to the nations so we have to study and ask the SPIRIT for discernment,,
God is ONE. How it is possible? The Old Testament does reveal the Christian concept of the Godhead, with God being one God, consisting of three Persons. How can God simultaneously exist as both singular and plural? The Holy Picture says it!
In Genesis we can see that there is the Holy Spirit and God was called in Hebrew in plural form- Elohim! Let�s consider it!
�Trinity�or in other words TRI-UNITY is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God�three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who make up God. How is it possible? Yes, it is possible because God is NOT a human being. He is the Supreme Being. Even Arab nation is one but you Muhammad is an Arab and your son will be an Arab and your father is also son of an Arab man. But the Arab nation is ONE. Because you all are united by common features and origin. There is no such word �trinity� in the Bible but there is the concept represented by the word �Trinity�in Scripture. The following is what God�s Word says about the Trinity:
1) There is one God.
2) The Trinity consists of three Persons . In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun �Elohim� is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for �us� is used. The word �Elohim� and the pronoun �us� are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. The Hebrew word for �God,� �Elohim,� definitely allows for the Trinity.
The Hebrew word translated "God" is the word El or Elohim. Elohim is the plural form of El. The plural form is used 2607 of the 2845 times the word "God" is used in the Old Testament. Not only is the word for God usually used in the plural form, but several verses refer to God as "Us":
� Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." (Genesis 1:26)
� Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- (Genesis 3:22)
� "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." (Genesis 11:7)
� Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!" (Isaiah 6:8)
Not only is the plurality of God found in the Old Testament, but the members of the triunity are also defined. Several Old Testament verses tell us that God is our Father:
� "Do you thus repay the LORD, O foolish and unwise people? Is not He your Father who has bought you? He has made you and established you. (Deuteronomy 32:6)
� "He will cry to Me, 'Thou art my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.' (Psalm 89:26)
� For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)
� For Thou art our Father, though Abraham does not know us, And Israel does not recognize us. Thou, O LORD, art our Father, Our Redeemer from of old is Thy name. (Isaiah 63:16)
� But now, O LORD, Thou art our Father, We are the clay, and Thou our potter; And all of us are the work of Thy hand. (Isaiah 64:8)
� "Have you not just now called to Me, 'My Father, Thou art the friend of my youth? (Jeremiah 3:4)
� "Then I said, 'How I would set you among My sons, And give you a pleasant land, The most beautiful inheritance of the nations!' And I said, 'You shall call Me, My Father, And not turn away from following Me.' (Jeremiah 3:19)
The Son is also found in the Old Testament:
� "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten Thee. (Psalm 2:7)
� Do homage to the Son, lest He become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him! (Psalm 2:12)
� Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His Son's name? Surely you know! (Proverbs 30:4)
� "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14)
The third member of the tri-unity of God, The Holy Spirit, is also found extensively in the Old Testament (so many referenced that I will not give you them here in this post!!!).
Finally, there are a number of verses in the Old Testament in which the triunity of God is directly expressed:
� Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His Son's name? Surely you know! (Proverbs 30:4)
� Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit. And the Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. (Isaiah 11:1-2)
� "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. (Isaiah 42:1)
� "Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit." (Isaiah 48:16)
� The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because the LORD has anointed Me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives, And freedom to prisoners; (Isaiah 61:1)
� In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the angel of His presence saved them; In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them; And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them. (Isaiah 63:9-10)
Some of the verses above include all members of the triunity (Isaiah 42:1, Isaiah 48:16, and Isaiah 61:1).
Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus� baptism. During the baptism of Jesus the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son.
Note that each member of the Trinity is God. (The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Son is subordinate to the Father.
Note also that the Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe. Yes, Jesus created the universe and people according to the Holy Scripture! The Father does all these things through the Son.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not parts of God; each of them is God! Look what Jesus said: (John 10:30)
I (Jesus) and the Father are one.�
We do believe that God is ONE. He is tri-united and acting in UNITY. But why? Because God REVEALED us that on the pages of His Holy Scripture! The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not parts of God; each of them is God!
Look I am ONE � Bahira- and at the same time I am 3 (body, soul, spirit). When my body will die I will be judged. Who am I? Who will be judged? So, I am living in the body the same way as God Jesus lived in the body. He was incarnated into human body but He was and is the SPIRIT. God is the Spirit (it is His nature/essence) and NOT human being.
We are created in God�s image. So, God Son, Father and the holy Spirit are THREE and UNITED. They are acting in unity and their ESSENCE or nature is the same- GOD. So, that�s why we believe in ONE God.
The Holy Scripture says that Jesus is the Word of God and He created all visible and invisible worlds! Everything! And He dwelt on earth in flesh.
John 1
The Eternal Word
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth
John 1
The Eternal Word
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth
Note also that the BIBLE is not just words or distorted writings. The Bible is the HOLY Scripture:
�All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work
"If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you." Romans 8:11
That�s why soon even our bodies will be resurrected by the same power of the God/the Holy Spirit/ �Ibn Allah. Why? To live eternally in the New World called the Kingdom of Heaven created by God Jesus for the SMALL REMNANT!
Brothers, do you want to see the Trinity concept in the Old Testament?
Do you want to hear words of God Jesus said before His birth on earth?
Then let�s read and ponder together:
12 � Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 � All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 � Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was,
I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me.�
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
� I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.�
Isaiah 48: 12-18
God is addressing to us here in this verse. God said here that He was in the beginning (I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there). Then God said that the Lord and His Spirit sent Him (Jesus). He is the Redeemer. He is the Holy One of Israel. That�s why we clearly see even here in this chapter God Jesus, God the Father and the Holy Spirit!
