Do Christians have to follow the Civil and Cermonial laws of Moses?
Posted : 9 May, 2011 05:11 PM
you don't have to follow any laws to be saved,,the only thing that has ever saved anyone in the history of the world is grace. That being said does grace give you the right to sin? No
sin is lawlessness and in YAHSHUA there was no lawlessness according to 1 Yohanan 3:4-5
following the Commands of YHWH is what an obedient son or daughter does,,these are not the laws of Mosheh,they are the laws of YHWH,these are not the laws of the Jews, they are the laws of YHWH
Mattithyahu 5
17 "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. 19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
notice what HE says here in 19 whoever shall DO AND TEACH THEM,,do and teach what the commands of YHWH
Mattithyahu 19
17 He said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
What do you do to enter into life? keep the commands
Marqos 7
6He replied, �Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
��These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.�b
8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.�
9And he said to them: �You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observec your own traditions!
Notice HE says LET GO OF THE COMMANDS OF YHWH so YHWH tells us how to worship HIM with HIS commands
Yohanan 5
19Jesus gave them this answer: �I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does.
Notice the learns from the FATHER by watching the FATHER and DOING what HE does,,whatever the FATHER DOES the SON DOES,,so an obedient SON does what HIS FATHER tells HIM
Yohanan 8
28So Jesus said, �When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am [the one I claim to be] and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.�
Notice the SON does what PLEASES the FATHER,,NOT WHATEVER HE WANTS,,HE ALWAYS DOES WHAT PLEASES THE FATHER ,,not sometimes not just a few commands but ALL
Yohanan 8
31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, �If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.�
33They answered him, �We are Abraham�s descendantsb and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?�
Does this SON who so far has said HE DOES what the FATHER the says set you free from the FATHER HE listens too,,or is HE setting you free from man-made tradition and doctrine? remember the Torah is NOT of man but of YHWH
Yohanan 8
54Jesus replied, �If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word.
THE SON OF YHWH says if HE glorifies HIMSELF it means nothing,,only YHWH glorifies a man,,BUT HE DOES KNOW HIM AND KEEPS HIS WORD,,not HIS OWN WORD THE FATHER'S WORD
Yohanan 12
49 For I have not spoken from myself; but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatever I speak therefore, even as the Father said to me, so I speak.
The FATHERS commandment is everlasting life,did the FATHER tell the SON to live the commands and tell others to break them after HE died?
Yohanan 14
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak to you, I speak not from myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake
AHHH so if you don't believe me SEE MY WORKS cause MY WORKS WILL SHOW HE IS IN ME!!!!!! AHHHHH
Yohanan 14
24 He that loveth me not, keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but that of the Father who sent me.
So if you love HIM you will guard HIS WORDS and those WORDS ARE FROM THE FATHER
Yohanan 17
20 Neither pray I for these alone; but for them also who shall believe on me through their word. 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest to me, I have given to them; that they may be one, even as we are one.
So if we are to be ONE with the FATHER and the SON as THEY are ONE and the SON ALWAYS did what the FATHER told HIM and we are to guard HIS commands then how could we not follow the commands that set us apart from the world and that the FATHER has given for so many other reasons ,,shadows,appointments,, how would we be different than THE SON of YHWH and not have be obedient ,,rabbinic law is so different than the law of YHWH,,it is the law of YHWH that we follow not mans law,,and it is hard it is not a burden but a blessing
in YAHSHUA MESSIAH all love to you brother may the SPIRIT of YHWH be upon you always
Do Christians have to follow the Civil and Cermonial laws of Moses?
Posted : 9 May, 2011 06:34 PM
We obviously are taught in the New Testament that the dietary laws no longer apply. We are taught in the New Testament that Jesus is the ultimate Sacrifice, so we no longer have to sacrifice animals for our sins.
If you say that the dietary laws are not required, but are a good idea for health reasons, then I am with you.
I like Lobster, but Lobster is a very unhealthy thing to eat on a regular basis.
Do you believe that a person is saved by trusting in Jesus ALONE, or do you have to have faith PLUS works to be saved?
I am not really for the Messianic groups per say. I don't think they are necessary. If you are with a group of Christians who all came from a Jewishbackground, and culture, and you wish to celebrate Jewish Holidays, that is fine. I have worshipped with Messianic Jews in Ukraine, and I had a friend from Israel, who is a Messianic Jew.
But, they KNEW they were saved by FAITH IN THE MESSIAH, and not being Torah Observant.
I just want to know if YOU believe this. I would like you to quote from Galatians, and tell us what you think about the Judaizers, who came into the church and told the Christians that Jesus was not good enough, but that they also had to be circumcised, etc.
IF all you are saying is, that Christians need to pay more attention to the law of God, meaning the ten Commandments, then I am with you all the way! If we truly love God, we should know that the CLEAREST expression of God's will for our lives IS the Ten commandments. We should meditate on them, and study them and try our best to live them out.
So, I guess I am asking you to give some evidence that you are NOT a judaizer.
Do Christians have to follow the Civil and Cermonial laws of Moses?
Posted : 10 May, 2011 10:14 AM
I would say that certain parts of the Old Covenant, such as the Ceremonial laws which you mention, are not relevant for a Christian. The Old Covenant had its purpose until Christ came and fulfilled it, and hence got the right to introduce a New Covenant (because he himself had fulfilled the demands of the Old). But that said, the New Covenant does not justify sin, and the commandments like "you shall not lie" etc are still in effect. There is forgiveness yes, but it is not a justification for sin. Paul the Apostle deals exactly with this in Romans (5-7 I believe). The Letter to the Hebrewes speaks of the difference between the Old and the New Covenant.
Do Christians have to follow the Civil and Cermonial laws of Moses?
Posted : 10 May, 2011 11:16 AM
okay so this turned out to be much longer than i had started out to write and now i have to go but i have not hit all points and i will return to show you where PETER DOES NOT SAY WE ARE TO EAT WHATEVER WE WANT,IT DOES NOT HAVE A DOUBLE MEANING,,IT WAS A VISION TELLING HIM TO GO TO THE GENTILES AND NOT MAKE UNCLEAN (MEANING GENTILES) WHAT YHWH HAS MADE CLEAN,,SO THEN HE GOES TO A HOUSE OF A GENTILE THAT BEFORE THAT VISION HE WOULD HAVE NEVER GONE TOO,,THAT WILL BE FOR LATER,,BUT NOW HERE ARE A FEW POINTS TO GET YOU STARTED I PRAY YOU READ THESE AND PRAY FIRST FOR UNDERSTANDING,,THIS TOOK ME HOURS TO POST SO PLEASE REAAD CAREFULLY I LOVE YOU
Numbers 15
15�As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the alien who sojourns with you, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the alien be before the LORD. 16�There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.��
Numbers 15
29�You shall have one law for him who does anything unintentionally, for him who is native among the sons of Israel and for the alien who sojourns among them. 30�But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from among his people. 31�Because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt will be on him.��
Romans 11
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 AND SO ALL YISRA'EL WILL BE SAVED, as it is written:
�The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.�
DOES THIS REALLY MEAN THAT ALL OF YISRA'EL WILL BE SAVED? YISRA'EL LITERALLY MEANS "HE WHO RULES WITH EL"also known for OVERCOMER or "God prevails"
Romans 11
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, �Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.� 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
SO WE HAVE ONE LAW FOREVER AND EVERYONE FOR THE STRANGER AND NATIVE,,WE ALSO HAVE ALL OF YISRA'EL WILL BE SAVED AND THE GRAFTING IN OF BRANCHES INTO ONE OLIVE TREE,,SO IF WE ARE TO BE ONE AS THE FATHER AND SON ARE ONE AND ONE TREE WITH MANY BRANCHES AND ONE LAW THEN HOW CAN YOU HAVE DIFFERENT SETS OF LAWS THAN ME? IF WE ARE TO BE THE SAME,,WILL ALL OF YISRA'EL BE SAVE IN THE MEANING OF ALL THE PEOPLE LINKED BY GENEALOGY OR IS IT THAT ALL THAT ARE UPRIGHT AND RULE WITH AND BELIEVE IN YHWH WILL BE SAVED AS THEY ARE ALL ONE TREE,ONE LAW,ONE BODY,ONE WITH FATHER AND SON,,YOU WILL SEE BELOW MUCH LATER TOO THAT THE ELDERS WROTE TO THE NATIONS THEY WERE GOING TO AND TOLD THEM TO ALSO KEEP FOUR OF THESE VERY SAME LAWS TO START WITH
Galatians 4
4but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5that he might redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7So that thou art no longer a bondservant, but a son; and if A SON, THEN AN HEIR THROUGH YHWH.
Galatians 3
7Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham,'saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
29And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.
GENTILE = OUTSIDE OF COVENANT in a wider sense the name embraces all nations not YISRA'EL that made the language, customs, and learning of the Greeks their own; the PRIMARY reference is to a DIFFERENCE of religion and worship,,literal meaning "nations" not under covenant,,that would mean "Ten commandments too" since they are part of the covenant
MY FRIENDS YOU ARE NOT GENTILES BUT COMMONWEALTH OF YISRA'EL
1 Yohanan
4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
Romans 7
7What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, �YOU SHALL NOT COVET.� 8But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
SO NOW WE HAVE WHAT IS SIN? SIN IS LAWLESSNESS,,IS THE LAW SIN? NO ONE WHO ABIDES IN MESSIAH IS LAWLESS,IT SAYS SO RIGHT HERE,,NO ONE WHO IS LAWLESS HAS SEEN HIM OR KNOWS HIM,,THE ONE WHO PRACTICES RIGHTEOUSNESS,,HOW DO YOU PRACTICE GRACE,,HOW DO YOU PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS IF NOT BY OBEYING THE LAW THAT YHWH GAVE YOU WALKING IN FAITH AND OBEDIENCE ,,,NO ONE BORN OF YHWH PRACTICES LAWLESSNESS
LAST ONE BUT THERE ARE MANY MORE I CAN GO ON AND ON BUT I HAVE TO GO
Ma'asei (acts) 15
18Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old. 19Wherefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them that from among the Gentiles turn to God; 20but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood. 21For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath.
NOTICE HERE BELOW "IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE ELDERS TO WRITE THESE THINGS",,WHAT ARE THEY TELLING THE NATIONS HERE? ALL FOUR OF THESE THINGS ARE LISTED IN THE TORAH THE LAW,WHICH IS REALLY BEST IN TRANSLATION SAYING INSTRUCTIONS,,ALL FOUR AGAIN ARE FROM TORAH AND GUESS WHAT YAHSHUA NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT EATING BLOOD DID HE OR THINGS STRANGLED SO IF YOU SAY HE DID NOT LIST THEM AMOUNG THE OTHER COMMANDMENTS THAT HE ONLY LISTED 9 AND THOSE WE KEEP THEN WHAT IS GOING ON HERE? THESE ELDERS KEPT ALL THE FEAST AND THE SHABBAT FOR THEY WILL GO TO THE SYNAGOGUES TO HEAR WHAT????? THE BOOK OF MOSHEH,,,SO IF YOU AGREE WITH THE FIRST ASSEMBLY THEN YOU WILL DO THESE THINGS,,IF NOT THE BLOOD IS ON YOU IF YOU TEACH MEN TO BREAK ANY OF THE LEAST OF THE COMMANDS FOR YOU WILL WHAT?? BE CALL THE LEAST IN WHERE?? THE KINGDOM
THEY THEN GO ON TO WRITE THESE TO NATIONS
22Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men out of their company, and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely , Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23and they wrote thus by them, The apostles and the elders, brethren, unto the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greeting: 24Forasmuch as we have heard that certain who went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment; 25it seemed good unto us, having come to one accord, to choose out men and send them unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who themselves also shall tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29that ye abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication; from which if ye keep yourselves, it shall be well with you. Fare ye well.
SO THIS IS A START BUT I THANK YOU SO MUCH CAUSE IN THIS I HAVE FOUND ,GUIDED BY THE SPIRIT GREAT KNOWLEDGE THAT I WILL SHARE IN ANOTHER POST
PEACE TO YOU BROTHERS AND ALL SISTERS TOO,,,I LOVE YOU SO MUCH AND I AM NOT A JUDAIZER BUT IF YOU LOVE HIM YOU WILL KEEP HIS COMMANDS,,ONE LAW,ONE BODY,ONE ASSEMBLY
YOU HAVE READ REVELATION WHERE IT SAYS THERE ARE GATES YOU WALK THROUGH?? YOU ALSO KNOW THOSE GATES ARE NOT DENOMINATIONAL RIGHT??? THEY ARE ONE FOR EACH TRIBE
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE YISRA'EL ON THE OUTSIDE YOU DO NOT HAVE TO LOOK LIKE YOU ARE MEANIG DRESS JEWISH,TALK JEWISH,,BUT YET YOU SHOULD ACT LIKE YOU ARE,,MEANING THAT IF YISRA'EL MEANS TO PREVAIL WITH YHWH OR TO OVERCOME WITH HIM RULE WITH HIM,,THEN WE SHOULD ACT LIKE THE SONS AND DAUGHTER WE ARE AND BE OBEDIENT TO HIM,,STOP MAKING UP YOUR OWN LAWS AN DOCTRINE AND JUST FOLLOW HIM,
THIS IS IMPORTANT
MESSIAH THE WAY HE LIVED,,HE LIVED THE TORAH AND KEPT IT COMPLETELY BUT THE WAY HE LIVED IT WAS IT LIKE THE LEGALIST DO ??? NO I WAS NOT!!! HE TAUGHT US HOW TO LIVE TORAH IN OUR HEARTS AND IN OUR LIVES,,THE TORAH IS INSTRUCTIONS OF HOW TO LIVE TOGETHER HERE ON EARTH THE WAY THE FATHER WANTS US TOO THAT IS ALL,,IT NEVER HAS SAVED ANYONE,,,IT IS SIMPLY INSTRUCTIONS OF HOW TO LIVE WITH YOUR BROTHERS AND SISTER AND BE FAITHFUL TO YHWH,SO THINK ABOUT IT THAT WAY, YOU SHOULD READ THE TORAH AGAIN AND SEE THAT MOST OF IT IS HOW TO KEEP EVERYBODY EQUAL AND KEEP EVERYBODY FEED AND SAFE,AND CLEAN TO BE THE CLEAN BRIDE,,
ANSWER THIS DOES ONLY BELEIF IN MESSIAH MAKE YOU A WORTHY CLEAN BRIDE?? THAT ONLY FAITH THAT HE DIED,,SO YES I HAVE FAITH HE DIED,,NOW WHAT?? HOW DO I KNOW HOW TO GO FROM THERE?? IF I ONLY DO WHAT HE SPECIFICALLY SAID THEN DO LISTEN TO THE EMISSARIES WHEN THEY SAY TO STAY AWAY FROM BLOOD OR HOMOSEXUALS,,YAHSHUA NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT HOMOSEXUALS EITHER SO IS THAT OKAY NOW TOO???
IT IS NOT ONE OR THE OTHER IT IS BOTH IF HAVE FAITH YOU HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE IN MESSIAH BUT HOW DO YOU LIVE THAT FAITH HERE ON EARTH BY OBEDIENCE AND YOUR GOOD WORKS LIVING AS HE DID,,GIVING TO THE POOR,WIDOWED,ORPHANED AND ENCOURAGING THE PRISONER
Ya'aqob (James)
19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, �AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,� and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
I LOVE YOU ALL PEACE TO YOU IN MESSIAH YAHSHUA WHO THROUGH HIS BLOOD HAVE A BEEN BORN ,,NAILING MY OLD MAN TO THE STAKE AND FOLLOWING HIM DAILY ,,IT IS AN UPHILL WALK FRIENDS MAY YOU BE GIVEN STRENGTH
Do Christians have to follow the Civil and Cermonial laws of Moses?
Posted : 10 May, 2011 09:34 PM
Icebro,
It sounds like you are saying that we are saved by faith in Jesus alone. But it also sounds like you are saying that the dietary laws are still in effect.
