There are a number of Scriptures that teach us that the scope of Christ's death was limited to the elect. Here are a few of them:
Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for MANY (Matthew 20:28).
The "many" for whom Christ died are the elect of God, just as Isaiah had said long before,
By his knowledge my righteous servant will justify MANY, and he will bear their iniquities. (Isaiah 53:11)
The Lord Jesus made it clear that His death was for His people when He spoke of the Shepherd and the sheep:
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep....just as the Father knows me and I know the Father---and I lay down my life for THE SHEEP (John 10:11, 15).
The good Shepherd lays down His life in behalf of the sheep. Are all men the sheep of Christ? Certainly not, for most men do not know Christ, and Christ says that His sheep know Him (John 10:14). Further, Jesus specifically told the Jews who did not believe in Him, "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep" (John 10:26). Note that in contrast with the idea that we believe and therefore make ourselves Christ's sheep, Jesus says that they do not believe because they are not His sheep! Whether one is of Christ's sheep is the Father's decision (John 6:37, 8:47), not the sheep's!
...just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for US as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God....husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up FOR HER to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless (Ephesians 5:2, 25-27).
Christ gave Himself in behalf of His Church, His Body, and that for the purpose of cleansing her and making her holy. If this was His intention for the Church, why would He give Himself for those who are not of the Church? Would He not wish to make these "others" holy as well? Yet, if Christ died for all men, there are many, many who will remain impure for all eternity. Was Christ's death insufficient to cleanse them? Certainly not. Did He have a different goal in mind in dying for them? [I am not here denying that the death of Christ had effects for all men, indeed, for all of creation. I believe that His death is indeed part of the "summing up of all things" in Christ. But, we are speaking here solely with the salvific effect of the substitutionary atonement of Christ. One might say that Christ's death has an effect upon those for whom it was not intended as an atoning sacrifice.] No, His sacrificial death in behalf of His Church results in her purification, and this is what He intended for all for whom He died.
He who did not spare His own Son, but gave him up for us all---how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring a charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died---more than that, who was raised to life---is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us (Romans 8:32-34).
The Father gave the Son in our place. Who is the "our" of this passage? The text says that it is "those whom God has chosen," that is, the elect of God. Again, the intercessory work of Christ at the right hand of the Father is presented in perfect harmony with the death of Christ---those for whom Christ died are those for whom He intercedes. And, as this passage shows, if Christ intercedes for someone, who can possibly bring a charge against that person and hope to see them condemned? So we see what we have seen before: Christ dies in someone's place, He intercedes for them, and they are infallibly saved. Christ's work is complete and perfect. He is the powerful Savior, and He never fails to accomplish His purpose.
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for HIS FRIENDS (John 15:13).
Are all the friends of Christ? Do all own His name? Do all bow before Him and accept Him as Lord? Do all do His commandments (John 15:14)? Then not all are His friends.
While we wait for the blessed hope---the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself FOR US to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good (Titus 2:13-14).
Both the substitutionary element of the cross (gave himself for us) and the purpose thereof (to redeem us...to purify) are forcefully presented to Titus. If it was the purpose of Christ to redeem and purify those for whom He died, can this possibly not take place?
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save HIS PEOPLE from their sins (Matthew 1:21).
Christ will save His people from their sins Well, did He? Did He save His people, or did He not?
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me (Galatians 2:20).
This is the common confession of every true believer in Christ. We died with Him, our Substitute, the one who loved us and gave Himself in our behalf.
We have seen, then, that the Word teaches that Christ died for many, for His sheep, for the Church, for the elect of God, for His friends, for a people zealous for good works, for His people, for each and every Christian.
James wrote - "71, I think he was using comedy to make a point. I realize it is not funny to an Arminian, but there is truth in it."
Comedy. Really? More like a mockery. I'm learning that you that follow Calvinistic teachings are abusive to the Body of Christ. If there is any love, I've missed it somewhere in the midst of copy and paste. And I would appreciate it if you would not call ME an Arminian. I don't claim that stuff, nor will you ever see me pasting in any thread those writings, nor have I ever read them. I claim Jesus Christ. Regardless of what your comedy show spews.
SOoooo....are the professed Reformers callin us All Reprobate and Unsaved ? Or are they Tellin us we aint got no Faith ? Or are they just being Servents of the Most Low ?...Ima just courious thats all...xo
James replies:
I have no idea what you mean by that.
I do wonder if Christians who believe Jesus died for everyone who ever lived, ask themselves about the people who are in Hell.
If Jesus died for everyone, then everyone's sins have been paid for, and there should be NO ONE in Hell.
As a matter of fact, if you believe that Jesus died for everyone, then I would expect you would end up being a universalist, and saying that God will save everyone who ever lived!
I mean if you demand that the "all" and "world" verses mean everyone who ever lived, then..........
You dont know ? You know Exactly what I mean by that...they are simple questions....that no professed Reformer will answer...Instead of answers...more questions are asked and A$$umptions are made...insults are spewed and people get angry at each other...for what ?...So they maybe self justified ?...For Whom did Christ Die?...I cant speak for others here but I can say...He died for me that I may have eternal life...xo
Well James it is very simple just as Jesus said, one would not assume that all would be in heaven because there sin was paid for. because the same one, the lord Jesus said he that believeth not is condemned already so he that believes, knows that if one does not believe he condemns himself, see it is not hard to know the truth.
Jude I can for speak for me, for I believe!!
James replies:
I have no idea what you mean by that.
I do wonder if Christians who believe Jesus died for everyone who ever lived, ask themselves about the people who are in Hell.
If Jesus died for everyone, then everyone's sins have been paid for, and there should be NO ONE in Hell.
As a matter of fact, if you believe that Jesus died for everyone, then I would expect you would end up being a universalist, and saying that God will save everyone who ever lived!
I mean if you demand that the "all" and "world" verses mean everyone who ever lived, then..........
James wrote - "The word "gospel" means Good news! God has sent Jesus that whosoever will repent and trust in Him, in Christ alone, is saved. Saved from an eternity in Hell, saved from a pointless life, saved TO holiness, saved to a life with meaning and purpose."
In your belief, "Good News" is only applicable for a selective elect of whosoevers. You can't share your Good News as being applicable to all those you share it with. Your "Gospel" is limited in its reaching of lost souls. You can't even tell a lost soul that Jesus loves them. Neither can you tell them that John 3:16 is for them. You can't tell them that God loves them. There are a lot of restrictions to your Gospel.
James wrote - "I don't include the FACT that Jesus died for people in every nation and every tribe and tongue. I usually DO include John 3:16, because it is a not only a good verse to use, but many people who are not Christians, have heard of it."
No, I imagine you wouldn't be able to include the FACT that Jesus died for the sins of mankind, because that would be an outright lie according to your belief. So better to not say Jesus loves anyone than to say He loves everyone or even one for that matter, because you might be saying it to the wrong person. And what of John 3:16? If a person asked you if God really loved them according to John 3:16, what would your reply be? "Only if you are elect"?
James wrote - "WHY, because Jesus SAID SO Immediately AFTER!! Keep reading......... Jesus NEXT says HOW hard it is for a rich man to be saved, and the disciples are STUNNED and they say: "who then CAN be saved?" And Jesus says, (Mark 10:27) "With men, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE......." So much for Free will again, huh!"
What Jesus was illustrating, was that not all men are willing to give up their lives to follow Him, including their earthly possessions. Read the verses again...
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions. -Mark 10:17,21-22
The man was sad that Jesus asked him to give up his possessions to follow Him. The thought grieved him. And he walked away from Christ', refusing to give all up to follow Him. So much for free will, you ask? You gotta be blind not to see that the man "chose" to reject the offer of Christ. You also gotta be blind not to see that the man came to Christ of his own free will, running to Him, in order to inquire what it takes to inherit eternal life. And still... Jesus LOVED HIM. You really gotta be blind to not see THAT.
Me again Lord...you know,the guy with all the ACCEPTing powers!I decided that since Im so good at accepting things that you should probably make me the king of acceptance!Thats right you see.There are a whole bunch of folks that dont have my great accepting abilities so im kinda special,you know.I want my own island too....we can call it acceptance island.That would be a good idea you see,its in honor of my great accepting ability.If it wasnt for my great accepting powers...why,Id be in hell,just like that heathen next door..but I aint like him God...I got Acceptance!:dancingp:
The one who calls himself "manofgod" wrote - "Me again Lord...you know,the guy with all the ACCEPTing powers!I decided that since Im so good at accepting things that you should probably make me the king of acceptance!Thats right you see.There are a whole bunch of folks that dont have my great accepting abilities so im kinda special,you know.I want my own island too....we can call it acceptance island.That would be a good idea you see,its in honor of my great accepting ability.If it wasnt for my great accepting powers...why,Id be in hell,just like that heathen next door..but I aint like him God...I got Acceptance!"
Fools make a mock at sin: but among the righteous [there is] favour. -Proverbs 14:9
James wrote - "Peter is not teaching who Jesus died for, he is Highlighting the responsibility of false teachers."
:laugh: Right. Peter wouldn't be telling us that the Lord spilled His blood for and bought even those that deny Him. He'd say instead, 'let me "highlight" for you the "responsibility" of false teachers just in case you didn't know. And part of that "responsibility is to deny the Lord that bought them'. Yeah. That makes sense. :rolleyes:
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the LORD THAT BOUGHT THEM, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. -2 Peter 2:1
Heaven forbid that verse should mean that Christ died for all sinners, even those who will deny Him. Or that it should mean exactly as it reads...
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. -Titus 1:16
They deny Christ who BOUGHT THEM.
James wrote - "Again, if you demand that the phrase, "the Lord that bought them" means Jesus died for everyone who ever lived, then you make the bible contradict itself when it says that Jesus died for "the sheep", "His people", "the church"," his friends", etc."
Jesus died for the sins of the world. Not for ours ONLY, but ALSO for those of the WHOLE world. Not for a part of the world, not for a scattered here and there people, but for the WHOLE, the ENTIRE, world of inhabitants. Those who turn to Jesus become His sheep, His people, His friends, all of whom make up the Church; also known as the Body of Christ.
James wrote - "The word "gospel" means Good news! God has sent Jesus that whosoever will repent and trust in Him, in Christ alone, is saved. Saved from an eternity in Hell, saved from a pointless life, saved TO holiness, saved to a life with meaning and purpose."
71said:
In your belief, "Good News" is only applicable for a selective elect of whosoevers. You can't share your Good News as being applicable to all those you share it with. Your "Gospel" is limited in its reaching of lost souls.
James replies:
It bothers me that you would put the Good news of the Gospel in quotes. You have definitely over reacted.
The good news is that although we have all sinned against God, God,in His mercy has made a way out for us, a way to escape the wrath that we all deserve. And that is through trusting in Jesus. We must repent and trust in Jesus and if we do this, the Bible says that we are adopted into God's family, and that we are declared perfectly righteous in the eyes of God, and we will have peace with God and will finally experience what life was meant to be.
Since neither of us knows who will accept Jesus, we both share the gospel the same way.
All you are complaining about, and in an overblown way, is that I won't tell people who are lost that "Jesus loves you".
That is childish, and hyper-sentimental. Please read in the book of Acts how the Gospel was shared, and you will see that NO apostle EVER went around saying "Jesus loves you".
71 continues:
You can't even tell a lost soul that Jesus loves them.
James replies:
I would NOT tell them that because if they are lost they need to be concerned with Going to HELL!
They need to repent and trust IN Jesus. You see how you are being hyper sentimental, and it has nothing to do with the truth?
71 said:
Neither can you tell them that John 3:16 is for them.
James replies:
That is NOT TRUE! Good Grief, I have had to spend a LOT of time on this group explaining to people that the word "whosoever" does NOT necessarily mean you have the ability, and NOW, YOU are saying "whosoever" does
not MEAN whosoever! It means ANYONE and john 3:16 is true for every single person on Earth!
71 continues:
You can't tell them that God loves them. There are a lot of restrictions to your Gospel.
James replies:
Well, from your viewpoint there is only one, and it consists of NOT running around telling people who are lost that Jesus loves them. What a silly, sentimental thing to do!! And WHERE IS THIS IN SCRIPTURE?????
NOWHERE. Do the apostles in the book of Acts run around telling everyone that Jesus loves them?
Did the Apostle Paul say this on Mars Hill?
James wrote - "I don't include the FACT that Jesus died for people in every nation and every tribe and tongue. I usually DO include John 3:16, because it is a not only a good verse to use, but many people who are not Christians, have heard of it."
71 continues:
No, I imagine you wouldn't be able to include the FACT that Jesus died for the sins of mankind, because that would be an outright lie according to your belief. So better to not say Jesus loves anyone than to say He loves everyone or even one for that matter, because you might be saying it to the wrong person. And what of John 3:16? If a person asked you if God really loved them according to John 3:16, what would your reply be? "Only if you are elect"?
James replies:
You need to read what I said again. Listen to yourself. Jesus dies for people in EVERY nation and tribe and tongue, and THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU????
So what if I would never say, "Jesus died for the sins of every person who ever lived". Do you HONESTLY think lost people care about that??? I mean, I will give you it sounds nice, in a Hallmark card kind of way. So what!
You ask a hypothetical question, which by the way, of the many people I have shared the gospel with NO ONE HAS EVER ASKED. But my answer to your trick question would be, "it is true for those who believe in Him."
James wrote - "WHY, because Jesus SAID SO Immediately AFTER!! Keep reading......... Jesus NEXT says HOW hard it is for a rich man to be saved, and the disciples are STUNNED and they say: "who then CAN be saved?" And Jesus says, (Mark 10:27) "With men, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE......." So much for Free will again, huh!"
What Jesus was illustrating, was that not all men are willing to give up their lives to follow Him, including their earthly possessions. Read the verses again...
James replies:
NO, YOU, READ IT AGAIN! Jesus said "with men it is impossible", and then YOU say "Jesus was illustrating that not all men are willing to give up their lives..."?
I think you need to look up the word "Impossible" in the dictionary! If something is impossible,
that means it CAN'T HAPPEN. I find it bizarre when Jesus point blank says something is impossible, and some Christian turns right around and tells me "It can happen".
Lets see if you can keep from contradicting Jesus on another one of His statements:
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Okay, According to Jesus, HOW MANY people can come to Him that the father does not draw?
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions. -Mark 10:17,21-22
The man was sad that Jesus asked him to give up his possessions to follow Him. The thought grieved him. And he walked away from Christ', refusing to give all up to follow Him. So much for free will, you ask? You gotta be blind not to see that the man "chose" to reject the offer of Christ. You also gotta be blind not to see that the man came to Christ of his own free will, running to Him, in order to inquire what it takes to inherit eternal life. And still... Jesus LOVED HIM. You really gotta be blind to not see THAT.
James replies:
I broke my main rule about discussing the doctrines of Grace with non-Calvinists. My main rule is I don't discuss it unless we discuss and agree on the first point. Total Depravity. YOU....are walking around believing that man has a free will that is not enslaved to sin. You think fallen mankind is not totally spiritually dead.
Yes, I see that Jesus loved him. So? That man could have been saved later! But the Holy Spirit had not entered that man then, because the man rejected Jesus. Jesus said, "with man, it is impossible". So much for free will.
1. the man rejects Jesus. 2. Jesus says "with man, it is impossible".
This is what we call total depravity, meaning the spiritual deadness of fallen man, has effected every part of his being,
