:winksmile: Well, I just meant that that particular belief seems prideful/presumptuous to me. I just think that only God knows/judges our salvation. It's probably just a "phrase" to you guys, but I'm from a differently belief system and it sounds presumptuous. Pride doesn't infiltrate every aspect of your life though, I'm not trying to say you're full of it. I really just think the problem is in the communication. Everything means something else to each of us:laugh:. Anyway...I'm starting to get confused now...you believe you could be a "pretender", but you still believe in eternal security? Or am I getting posters mixed up? So confused!!:dunce:
To Mr Hamilton and George, neither of you have brought forth the truth according to the name of the post, you have clearly denied the word, And George you are in no position to speak as one that knows until you come in agreement with the word, his name is Jesus, you can be stiff necked all you want it will not change him.
It is not the problem of others when you so openly deny scripture, you want others to think the word of God is truth, and your actions say that it is not. Know who has the problem you or the word.
John Phillip I would say scripture is there and I understand what the doctrine of believing you can loose salvation is I understand your argument that a person needs to be faithful but true saving faith the outward essence of being saved is being faithful Jesus is the Author and finisher of our faith he started it and He will finish it man can not be sinless perfect until we are joined with Christ When a sinner comes to Christ for Salvation you cannot undo a spiritual birth you will not find scriputural proof to support that Idea I believe the believer is Eternaly sealed and you do not obviously there is no more need of argument you believe what you believe I believe what I believe Iam done with the post this doctrine has been fought over for years and its going to continue to be fought over
Yeshua is the one who starts the relationship with man.
Yeshua is the one who does the work of saving,keep,protecting and providing everything one needs within their relatioship with Yeshua.
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
John 10:29 MyG3450 Father,G3962 whichG3739 gaveG1325 them me,G3427 isG2076 greaterG3187 than all;G3956 andG2532 noG3762 man is ableG1410 to pluckG726 them out ofG1537 myG3450 Father'sG3962 hand.G5495
The word here for able is "doo-nam-ahee"which state:No one has the power to remove anyone from Yeshua whom the Father has given to him.
This includes the believers themselves.
We are called not to resist the Holy Spirit;
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
PJ,I love you yet,you do not build up people,rather you tear them down. If you are going to tear people down then at least build them back up again.
*sigh*...Well, I sure believe He died for our sins. That's not "nothing". I just don't think we get to judge our own salvation. God is the Judge and the day of judgment isn't here yet. The bible and Jesus say that men can fall away.
Ezekial 33:8
When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
9Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
10Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
12Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
If eternal security is true, then a lot of the bible just doesn't make any sense. There must be a mix. I just think it's funny that whenever someone submits a contradicting verse, then it's explained away as "well, it doesn't really mean that", but I guess the verses that you guys claim support your belief are immune to the same "misinterpretation". I think I've submitted some pretty clear scripture that shows that it's possible to fall from grace. Satan did it. Adam and Eve did it. Why not us?
Scripture doesn't contradict scripture. If something doesn't make sense then it is explained by scripture.
When you look over the vast majority of scripture what you see is NOT a loss of salvation or a falling away- the vast majority states that we are kept by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
Jude 1:1 "Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, to those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and KEPT by Jesus Christ"
Jude 1:24-25 " To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy� to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen."
John 10:28-29 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than al; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."
Ephesians 4:30 "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption."
Ephesian 1:13-14 "in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory."
And more, which is just hitting the top of the list- John 3:15-16, Romans 8:38-39, 1 John 5:11-13, 1 Peter 1:5, Romans 5:1, 8, 10-11, Hebrews 9:11-14, 7:25, John 17:11, Hebrews 12:5-11, 2 Cor 5:17-19, Titus 3:5-7, 2 Tim 1:12, 2:19; Romans 8:16, John 3:16-18, 14:16; James 4:5, 2 Cor 1:22, Ephesians 2:5-6, 2 Timothy 2:11-13, Colosians 3:3-4, John 5:24.
There are about three passages, when read in context, that are used to show loss of salvation. One is Hebrews 6:4-6. Another is 2 Peter 2:21- and if all of chapter 2 in second Peter is read, one can see that this is not about those who are saved and fall away- but those who are labeled false teachers and prophets. If it was reversed and the vast majority of scripture showed that salvation could be lost, then I would agree. But it doesn't, so I cannot.
If eternal security is a lie, then Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient enough to cleanse a person from sin or keep a person from sin. Thus- His death was in vain. If eternal security is a lie, then all of those passages above were NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit, who is God, and thus the Word is not inerrant.
That passage in Ezekiel is very good.. however it's not on topic with what we're talking about. Those who have obtained salvation are not wicked- we WERE those things, but we are no longer. A new creation means exactly what it says, a new creation, born in Christ and kept by Christ.
And the passages in 2 Timothy.. finish out that saying. Actually, go back some and let's really look at this book.
2 Timothy 1:12 "For which cause I suffer also these things: yet I am not ashamed; for I know him whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that he is able to guard that which I have committed unto him against that day." Do you not see that? HE guards what we've entrusted to Him. We don't. We have already overcome the world and endured to the end through Christ, not ourselves, for Christ has already conquered sin, hell, and death and has made us conquerors in Himself as well.
Now, that other passage in 2 Tim 2:11-13 (it's actually all one thought. :))
"Faithful is the saying: For if we died with him, we shall also live with him: if we endure, we shall also reign with him: if we shall deny him, he also will deny us: if we are faithless, he abideth faithful; for he cannot deny himself."
We are given the HS upon salvation, He is the down payment on our inheritence (which, with no contigency clause given according to John 3:16-19, makes it done deal), He seals us until the day of redemption. The Holy Spirit IS God- so for a believer to loose or be able to "give back" his or her salvation, God must, in affect, deny Himself.
Uh...but the verse says a righteous man that sins will die. His righteousness will be remembered no longer, and he will die for the sins he has committed. And it has to be a truly Godly righteous man, because it also says "if he trusts in his own righteousness", meaning he is currently trusting in God's righteousness. Anyway, it's cool to have someone besides dudes all the time! We need more ladies in these topics!
"If eternal security is a lie, then Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient enough to cleanse a person from sin or keep a person from sin. Thus- His death was in vain. If eternal security is a lie, then all of those passages above were NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit, who is God, and thus the Word is not inerrant."
Are you sinless? Then wasn't Jesus's sacrifice enough to keep you from sin? I believe Jesus died to save us from our sins in the past, and to give us power to resist temptation in the future, and to give us grace to fall on if we sin....but I do believe we have a part to play, and the bible is pretty clear about that. "Go and sin no more".
