Author Thread: Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 25 Jun, 2010 08:53 AM

Whilst there is more to Calvinism than five points, these are the major points on which Calvinism rests. They are called the T-U-L-I-P. Point 1, Total Depravity; Point 2, Unconditional Election; Point 3, Limited Attonement; Point 4, Irresistable Grace; and Point 5, Perseverence of the Saints.



Point 1, Total Depravity. Simply put, this doctrine says that all mankind, since the fall, has been totally depraved. That man, both individually and generally, is totally debased and corrupt, that he is unable to think or do anything good outside of God's Providence.



Now what is my problem with this? It's the word, "total." Certainly the Bible teaches the depravity of man, but I don't see the total aspect of it. You see the scripture is generalized when it speaks of the wickedness of man. For example, Genesis 6.5 says, "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." That sounds kinda bad. But it is still a general statement regarding the moral condition of mankind. Obviously, it wasn't individual. Because in verse 8 we are told that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Was Noah totally depraved? Nowhere does the text indicate that. Of course the Calvinist would say that God gave grace to Noah. But that is unsupported by the text as well. The idea that Noah obeyed God suggests there was some good in him. Or maybe Noah wasn't included in God's assessment in verse 5. And, if Noah wasn't included in verse 5, then that shows the generallity of the statement. No matter how you try to explain it, Noah was different.



We can look at mankind today, with all the murders, the wars, the rapes, the threats from one government to another suggesting that annhilation is right around the corner, and conclude that man is depraved, eventhough there are some righteous people on the earth, of which can be said God found grace in His eyes.



I once knew an atheist, and he was till he died. Yet, this man was the one of the most giving man I ever knew. I use to visit his used bookstore, and one day I told him I was thirsty, and asked if I could have a glass of water. Without hesitation, he brought me a glass of water. I remember, one time someone was looking at a book, and it was marked $.50. They only had a quarter. He sold them that book for a quarter. He use to donate books to various charities when they had book drives, which they in turn sold with the proceeds going to that charity. Yet, by Calvinistic definition, he was totally depraved. Of course, they would probably say that eventhough he was totally depraved, he filled some purpose in God's Providence.



The problem I have with the Calvinistic doctrine of total depravity is that it can neither be proved or disproved. Certainly, in general the scriptures do teach the depravity of man, but not individually. But then again, there is God's providence. I know there was a time I was financially in very bad shape. A man took pity on me and helped me. Later, he was charge with some kind of financial crime, whether embezzelment, or something like that. He had two businesses, and he stole money from one business to keep the other going. He didn't pay taxes, nor social security for any of his employees. He took the money off their checks, but somehow, it never got to the IRS. Later, of course, the IRS came after the employees for their money as we are responsible to pay our taxes, even though there is no law that says so.



Oh yes, I could go on and point out indications that man is depraved, but that even a depraved man can do something good.



Decide for yourself. Is man totally depraved? I personally don't think so.



Point 2, Unconditional Election. Several years ago, I did a study on the words elect, chose, chosen, as they pertain to this doctrine. What I found is that those words pertain to Christ, to the apostles, and to the church. Never to anyone individually, except Christ.



The fact is we are chosen in Christ, and we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4 states, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." This verse makes it plain, those whom are chosen are chosen in Him, in Christ. Outside of Christ, no one is chosen. Therefore, we must then understand how someone is chosen in Christ, and that is where the conditions come in. Salvation is the process by which we are chosen in Christ.



Condition #1, believing. John 3.16, a familiar passage to most. But let's go a bit further and include verses 17 and 18. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through might be saved. He that believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name in the only begotten Son of God." There can be no doubt that according to these verses, believing is very definitely a condition for salvation. And you cannot be elect without being saved, and being in Christ.



Condition #2, repentance. Luke 13.3 & 5 say the same thing. "I tell you no, but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." Wel that's pretty well straight forward. No repentance, no salvation, you will perish.



Condition #3, confession. Romans 10:9 states. "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Confess with your mouth, and believe in your heart brings salvation. That's simple enough.



Some folks add water baptism as a condition of salvation. One thing for certain, salvation is not unconditional. And since salvation is of itself a condition of election, it's safe to say election is not unconditional.





Point 3, Limited Attonement. This is my favorite. Why? Because, it's the easiest to refute. Let me tell you, the five points are like dominoes. When one falls, they all do.



Keep in mind, these five points of Calvinism are all connected to their doctrine of particular election, and their doctrine of particular redemption. Without these five points, those two doctrines are gone. It's like, you tell a big lie. Then you have to create a bunch of little lies to support the big lie. And in this point of limited atomement, the lie is exposed.



Limited atonement is just that. Before the foundation of the world God the Father predetermined to send Christ in to the world at just the right time to become a sacrifice for the sins of a select few, called the elect.



Now the truth. In John 12.32, Jesus said, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL to Myself." Notice the word "ALL." This is my own translation. In the KJV, they add the word men in italics. If you have read the preface of the KJV, you know that words in italics are added words to clarify the text. Take the word out, and you have what the original states. You have the same in the NKJV. Without the added words, you might ask all what. But with the added words, you don't need to. In answer to the question, "All what?" Without the extra word we simply have to look at the text. What was Jesus talking about? So let's look at the text. John 12. 30-32. "Jesus answered and said, 'This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all world to Myself.'" You can see, I added the word world in italics. In the the text, Jesus is talking about the judgement of the world (kosmos). Then he refers to the manner in which He would die. If you're going to add a word, it should be a word in keeping with the text. So the message of Jesus here is, "If I be crucified, I will draw all the world to Myself." That sure doesn't sound like limited atonement to me. I realize there are some Calvinistic Greek scholars that would disagree with this definition. But the Greek word, pantos does not support the idea of any kind of limitation. According to the Greek books that I have, the word means, wholly, entirety, every.



Then there is I John 2.2, "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." Again, the Greek word, holos, translated "whole" shows absolutlely no limitation. I Timothy 4.3-6 teaches that God "desires all men to be saved," and that Jesus "gave Himself a ransom for all." That doesn't sound like only a select few. I believe it is safe to say that in no way does scripture teach limited atonement.



Point 4, Irresistable Grace. Since Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, with irresistable grace, everyone should be saved, since it is impossible to resist the grace of God. But, Galatians 5.4 states, "You have become eastranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace." Fallen from irresistable grace! How can that be? Those trying to be justified by the law are also estranged from Christ. Doesn't sound like irresistable grace to me. And, that leads to the next point.



Point 5, Perseverance of the Saints. This suggests that all saints, through God's unconditional love and irresistable grace, that all saints will be equipped to always persevere. If so, then why does scripture warn about an apostasy? You can't fall from something unless you are in it. In II Thessalonians 2, Paul wrote about the coming of the Lord, and wrote, "that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first..." Then there is the pronouncment by Paul that those who try to be justified by the Law, "you have fallen from grace." Saints falling from grace. This shows two things. God's grace is not irresistable even among the saints, and therefore, having fallen from grace, they are not able to pesevere.



There you have it. A discussion on the five points which are a part of a system of theology known as Calvinism.



PREDESTINATION



Certainly scripture teaches predestination. Where Calvinism and scripture part ways is what God's predestination is based on. Calvinism teaches that God loved his elect before the foundation of the world, and saved only those few. But that is not what scripture teaches.



For the truth we go to Romans 8.29 & 30, which states, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined. these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."



Romans 8.29 plainly teaches that God's predestination is based on His foreknowledge. What does this word, "foreknew," mean? It is translated from the Greek, proginosko, which means, according to Vine, "to know before." It does not mean, "to love before," as Calvinists teach. If it did, the word would have to be, proagape, but as you can see, it's not.



Vine explains, "God's foreknowledge involves His electing grace, but does not preclude human will. He foreknows the exercise of faith which brings salvation."



Ephesians 1.5 & 11 further teaches that He "predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." "And it is in Christ, "in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."



So the doctrine of predestination properly is; according to the foreknowledge of God we are predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son, Jesus. Through predestination in Christ, we are called, we are justified, we are glorified, we are adopted as sons by Jesus Christ, through whom we obtain an inheritance, according to the pupose, good pleasure, and counsel of God's will.



A part of God's omniscience is His foreknowledge. God foreknows all things. Calvinism teaches that God foreknows all things because He has preplanned all things. However, I see no support for this in scripture.

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klmartin62

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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 28 Jun, 2010 03:43 PM

PJ and Sam,



I will leave you to whatever god it is you follow because we know it is not the one from the bible, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Have fun.



Mark,



You have done a lot of adding to the word there. The Bible seldom tells us why God does anything. As a matter of fact, it tells us we are not to question Him. You are making a lot of assumptions and putting them out there as fact. That is not a good habit to get into. Try going by the bible alone and it will open your eyes. God doesn't need you to make excuses for Him, He is God. He can do as He pleases, whether we approve or not. He is not the wimpy ineffective God people make Him out to be.



Blessings,

Leon

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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 28 Jun, 2010 04:30 PM

Sir James,

Try studying a little. I've been studying the Bible since I was 7, I am now 54. That is 47 years. And in all my studying, I have learned that when Jesus refers to "His people," He is referring to the Jews. The reason for this is that the gentiles have not been grafted in as yet, so His people had to be Jews.

In the Old Testament there are Messianic prophecies that stated that the Messiah was going to come through Israel. Jesus was not prophesied to go to the gentiles, nor come through the gentiles. Yet it was prophesied that He would come to save His people.

Do you understand now, or do I have go more deeply into this subject?

It's amazing, much of what I have learned in the past 47 years is being challenged today. With, a few exceptions, most of my doctrinally beliefs have been a round for a very long time. I really don't understand the nature of the arguments, as these belief are traditional, historic, and stood the test of time.

Salvation through faith in Christ alone has been considered sound doctrine for hundreds of years. Likewise the inerrancy of the word of God. Likewise, the people of God in the Old Covenant dispensation, which did not come to an end till the cross, were the people of Israel. Jesus being the Son of God, born of a woman of Israel, He was a part of Israel. Hence, when we see the phrase "His people," prior to the cross, we knoe that His people were the people of Israel. That too has been sound doctrine for hundreds of years. It is nothing new.



Sorry if my sarcasm bothered you. I will keep that in mind. But, it is a part of my nature to use humor to make a point. Please keep that in mind when I say something that makes absolutely. However, this is not one of them.



God bless.

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DontHitThatMark

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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 28 Jun, 2010 06:23 PM

Leon,



Not really...God has principles. God has a character, and God never changes. So if God does something, it can be applied to everything else He does because God is perfect and He never changes.



:peace::peace:

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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 28 Jun, 2010 09:01 PM

Thank you Leon, very true statement

Mark. There is no argument against it either.

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klmartin62

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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 28 Jun, 2010 09:02 PM

Mark,



I never said He wasn't all those things, and much mor besides.



I want to know where you get the idea it is okay for us to judge His actions? The bible spells out clearly the things God has done, but it seldom tells us why. If the bible doesn't say and you promote an answer as fact, you have added to the word.



Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I HAVE RAISED YOU UP, THAT I MAY SHOW MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MAY BE DECLARED IN ALL THE EARTH."

Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Nowhere does it say that God tried and tried to get Pharaoh to come to Him. In fact, the opposite is true. When Pharaoh tried to give in, God wouldn't let him. Instead, He hardened his heart.



He also repeatedly had the Israelites wipe out entire peoples, every man, woman, and child. Sometimes all the livestock as well. How do you feel about that one?



What of God sending an angel to be a lying Spirit in the mouths of the 400 prophets of King Ahab? Why? So he would go to war and be defeated. What of all the soldiers that died to accomplish this?



By today's touchy feely beliefs, you would b asking what kind of God we serve.



But if you believe the bible, not only will you not question these things, you will realize that God is Holy and never makes mistakes, so it must have been for the greater good somewhere along the line. We just can't see it.



BTW, that was only a few examples, the bible is full of them.



Blessings,

Leon

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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 28 Jun, 2010 09:09 PM

You might want to go back Leon, and retract that statement, How is you keep putting the lord in cohoots with Satan.

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DontHitThatMark

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Posted : 28 Jun, 2010 09:31 PM

Well...I'm done arguing about it. You know where I stand, I know where you stand. Doesn't appear that anyone is listening to each other at all...we all have our little verses we like to quote. I just happen to believe that this whole thing is about God proving to the universe that He is fair, loving, and selfless against the accusations of Satan. This whole thing was all about bringing Jesus into the world so we would know what God is really like. I'm not saying God didn't wipe out thousands of people. I'm not saying that He doesn't use the will of willingly unregenerated men against themselves. I'm saying that the motives of God in the bible have to be interpreted with God's true character. What I'm basically hearing you say is that God wipes people off the planet because it pleases Him to do so. I'm trying to point out that God gives people a chance, sometimes many chances, before He kills them off. The bible is extremely plain and obvious about that fact to me. Yes, He kills sinners, but He takes no pleasure in it. Why? Because He really does love all of His creation more than He loves Himself, and I believe He died so that every human could be saved. Anything less is doubting the power of God/Jesus's sacrifice...in my opinion.





:peace::peace:

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Posted : 28 Jun, 2010 10:16 PM

Mark,

Another excellent post. I am listening, and I understand.

I once asked a friend what he thought about reformed theology. And he replied, "I prefer the formers to the reformers." It seems you prefer the formers as well. That is something the modern religious people don't seem to understand. The doctrines of the church before Luther, Calvin, Arminius, etc., and before the church split into West and East. Before the church took off on it's own and created on false doctrine after another. Those were the days of the Apostolic Fathers, those who were disciples of the apostles. It seems many here don't understand that. But, I think you are on the right track.

You are one that I wouldn't mind having at: www.wayoftruth.motion-forum.net

God bless.



Old age is all it's cracked up to be. I had something else in mind, now I can't find it. Oh well maybe I'll remember later.



:yay:

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Posted : 28 Jun, 2010 11:02 PM

I found it.

Leon said to Mark,

"I want to know where you get the idea it is okay for us to judge His actions? The bible spells out clearly the things God has done, but it seldom tells us why. If the bible doesn't say and you promote an answer as fact, you have added to the word."

Sam: I'm sorry, I can't see where these statements apply to Mark. Where has he said it was okay to judge God? Where has he added to the word? He has explained the Word. He didn't add to it. In legal parlance, that is a serious charge that has no foundation. As a prosecutor, you'd be laughed out of court.



Leon continued:



"Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I HAVE RAISED YOU UP, THAT I MAY SHOW MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MAY BE DECLARED IN ALL THE EARTH."

Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. "

Sam: And the point is? I haven't seen anyone say otherwise. Certainly there are special cases where this true. But it is not taught anywhere that this true for the whole human race. Nowhere does Scripture teach that God traveled through human history and point to one and said, "You will be saved," then pointed to another and said, "You will go into eternal damnation." If you can find that in Scripture, I'd like to see it, without somehow twisting the words.



Did you know Mark is only 25? Yet he has a better handle on Scripture than many people I know that are twice his age. He reminds me of me when I was that age. And, you guys are treating him the way religious people treated me. Instead, I should have been encouraged to continue to study, as Mark should be. Instead, religious people of today just condemn. If he continues to study with a zeal for the truth, he'll be okay.

I think you owe him an apology. Many of your statements to him have the air of condemnation to them. An attitude that you know better than he does. Is it because he's young, or is that the way you treat everybody? Can't you discuss without the personal attacks? Doesn't the Bible teach that we should encourage one another?

I don't know, maybe I'm too cynical in my old age, but that is how you come across.

God bless

Now let's have a drink. :buddies:

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klmartin62

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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 29 Jun, 2010 01:06 AM

Mark,



Sam is right, I do owe you an apology. I have a personality flaw that when I get passionate about something it comes across as condescending. You are doing great for your age, and no I did not look to see how old you were.



After I read your reply I realized that we are not that far off on our beliefs. Yes, God does all these things that we don't understand, but we have to know that it is always for the best, even though we may not see it at the time.



One example was God told Israel to wipe out a people and they kept a remnant alive. Generations later, this people would have destroyed the Jews if not for Queen Ester stepping in and risking her own life. Had they listened to God originally, that would not have happened, but they didn't understand at the time, either.



We do still have differences, but not major ones.



Blessings,

Leon

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