In dealing with the issue of a Christian being able to "Forfeit" their salvation is made abundantly clear throughout the New Testament. So let's also deal with a particular passage which I believe demonstrates this concept as well.
The Seven letters of Revelation were written to Seven literal Christian Churches, not "church ages". Jesus had good things to say about these churches and bad things to say as well. Each one irregardless of their praise or rebuke were given a warning. Each one was told of the need to "Overcome" if they expected to inherit various things including eternal life. These letters were written to Christians, real Christians, Born Again Believers.
Rev 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
What happens if one does not "Overcome"? They don't get to eat from the "Tree of Life".
Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
What happens to those who do not overcome? They will be hurt by the Second Death.
Rev 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give to him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knows except he who receives it .
What happens to those who do not overcome? They don't get to eat of the "Hidden Manna".
Rev 2:26 And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations.
What happens to those who do not overcome? They do not receive power over the Nations.
****Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not BLOT OUT HIS NAME FROM the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.****
What happens to those who do not overcome? Their names are blotted out from the Book of Life! They Forfeited their salvation!
Rev 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
What happens to those who do not overcome? They do not become a new pillar, they do not get God's name written on them nor Jesus' new name?
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
What happens to those who do not overcome? They do not get to sit down with Jesus on His Throne!
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. NKJV
Here we see Jesus making a very clear statement that it is entirely possible to remove someone from the Book of Life. To be in the Book of Life one must first be a true believer and that is obvious or else they would not be in the Book of Life to begin with. So if Jesus is warning CHRISTIANS of this very real possibility then the idea of a Christian "Forfeiting" their salvation, committing Apostasy is no doubt very real.
The False Teachings of "Once Saved Always Saved" and "Calvinism" flies in the face of these Scriptures, among others.
Sorry my Friend but your buddy at Seminary is not being accurate and he should know better. The Verb "snatch" defines the function of the pronouns as to who does what to whom. A verb that is used in the Active Voice is the word that makes the determination. Every example in scripture where "snatch" is used in the "Active Voice" is in 100% agreement with what I have presented. The burden of proof lies solely with you to prove your case. You would have to show clear scriptures where the verb snatch used in the "active voice" agrees with your position. They don't exist.
Mat 11:12
Mat 12:29
Mat 13:19
John 6:15
John10:12
John10:28
John10:29
Acts 8:39
Acts 23:10
1 Thess 4:17
Jude 1:23
In each case the Verb Snatch is in the "active voice" and demonstrates that the party doing the snatching cannot be of the same group or person that is being snatched. You cannot twist the pronouns to contradict the grammatical rules. It's just plain and simple. This is why it is so important to study Greek and not have to rely too heavily on the opinions of others as they can be bias at times and sometimes will even blow smoke.
So show me a verse where the Greek Verb for snatch is in the "Active Voice" that agrees with your position and I will gladly concede that you have a defense for your case.
You are comparing apples to oranges. You have to be aware that this is the only instance of this verb being applied using a double negative, therefore there can be no comparison to other verses. However, the fact that it is different from all the other times it is used should tell you that there is something different about this verse and that trying to force it to fit all the other occasions is a mistake.
My friend will only break down the language, he will never give an opinion on theology. He will not even discuss it with anyone. He says you cannot effectively translate if you already have an opinion. That is the problem I kept running into when I was looking at commentaries. They were so biased that they were no longer credible. Because of this and other things, I have to accept my friends views over anyone elses that I know. He is the only one I know who is unbiased when it comes to interpretation.
My Pastor (who studies advanced Greek) and myself are unbiased in this as well. Our friend Roger has his Masters in Greek and is unbiased as well. In fact Roger who we met on a Discussion board at Tyndale Theological Seminary was a OSAS, Traditional Dispensationalist and Pre-trib Rapture and also believed like Baptist do about Baptism, has completely changed from all those positions. So I can say that is is certainly not biased whatsoever, at least not any more. ;-)
Leon, please have your seminary friend explain how the word "snatch" written in the Active voice determines the function of the pronouns and how it does not allow "you" to snatch yourself or be the person who is unable to snatch yourself might be better stated. If he is honest and truly understands Greek, there is only one conclusion he can give you.
Blessings!
Walter
PS: I would like for you to address the other scriptures I posted a couple of posts up.
Let's finish what we started before we move on. I did answer a few of them, but I can throw out as many or more than you can. there are just too many. Why do you think this debate rages on?
I think we both already know what my friends answer will be to your question, the double negative sets the tone and tells us where the shift in importance is within the sentence structure.
As for being unbiased, I have yet to see anything you post that is un biased, but then neither is any of mine. I have an opinion and it affects my thoughts on a subject.
I never got to take any language classes from my friend, though I would love to, he was our ethics teacher. I had forgotten about him until I ran across his address while forwarding some email the other day. He always taught us clearly, that if you have an opinion, you have corrupted your ability to be unbiased. I agree, but can do nothing about it. It is just my nature.
I can say that I am not biased because when I study scriptures I do not try to prove what I think the scriptures say but instead allow the proper exegesis to mold and develop my beliefs. I don't care what they are as I only seek the truth. When I approach the scriptures I do my best to not approach them with any preconceptions. I question myself and look at it from all angles and apply Hermeneutics consistently, guided by the Holy Spirit. As a former Police Officer having investigated most every type of crime, I learned a long time ago that you have to keep an open mind and examine all the evidence. Sometimes you can have a stack of evidence pointing towards a particular suspect when all of a sudden one little piece of evidence changes the whole scenario and then you have to re-examine all the other evidence from another perspective. I am very use to doing this and it helps tremendously in Biblical studies.
So let's do this. Let's continue with our discussion and let's address the specific passages I have previously presented and address them one by one. Then after we can address whatever scriptures you have in mind and do this methodically and slowly so we do not miss anything. I tend to think that since you believe at least in part that OSAS is a correct doctrine, then perhaps I can place the burden of proof on my shoulders to demonstrate with sound scriptures that Christians can and will "Forfeit" their salvation. What are your thoughts on this?
Don't you just hate that! LOL It has happened to me more than once. Very frustrating. So now before I "send" the message I highlight it first and then hit "Copy" and then if it gets lost because I got bumped off the site, I just log back in, go to the forum, and repost it.
