Ok! Here's something I'd like to talk about some more...for a couple reasons. First reason! It's what I believe. Second reason! I would like it tested by the bible warriors on here. This is the bible battleground after all, why not put my beliefs to the test? I could be wrong, and if I am I'd really like to know.
Here's the scriptures I believe support my belief that when people die, they are in an unconscious state until the second coming of Christ. I honestly don't know absolutely, but it seems like the weight of scripture at least supports an unconscious state after death until the second return of Christ. There are some in heaven, like Enoch, Elijah, and Moses are the only ones I know of for sure. There were many resurrected at the resurrection of Jesus. But I believe as a whole...most of God's followers and all the wicked are resting in the grave until the judgment. So if its ok, I'd like to see the scriptures that contradict my views and support your views...because honestly, I could just be searching the bible for what I want to see.
*1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
* Genesis 2:7. "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." Body (form) + Breath of life/God (n�phach /puff) = a living being, or Soul (Hebrew נפש nephesh[8])
* Genesis 3:19. "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou returnest unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
* Genesis 18:27-28. "27And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes: "
* 2 Samuel 7:12 "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom."
* Job 3:17. "There [the grave] the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest."
* 1 Kings 2:10. "10So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David."
* 1 Kings 11:21. "21And when Hadad heard in Egypt that David slept with his fathers,"
* 1 Kings 11:43. "43And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father:"
* 1 Kings 14:20. "20And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers"
* 1 Kings 14:31. "31And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David."
* 1 Kings 15:8. "8And Abijam slept with his fathers; and they buried him in the city of David:"
* 1 Kings 15:24. "24And Asa slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father:"
* 1 Kings 16:6. "6So Baasha slept with his fathers, and was buried in Tirzah:"
* 1 Kings 16:28. "28So Omri slept with his fathers, and was buried in Samaria:"
* 1 Kings 22:40. "40So Ahab slept with his fathers;"
* 1 Kings 22:50. "50And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father:"
* 2 Kings 8:24. "24And Joram slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David:"
* 2 Kings 10:35. "35And Jehu slept with his fathers: and they buried him in Samaria."
* 2 Kings 13:9. "9And Jehoahaz slept with his fathers; and they buried him in Samaria:"
* 2 Kings 14:22. "22He built Elath, and restored it to Judah, after that the king slept with his fathers."
* 2 Kings 14:29. "29And Jeroboam slept with his fathers, even with the kings of Israel;"
* 2 Kings 15:7. "7So Azariah slept with his fathers; and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David:"
* 2 Kings 15:22. "22And Menahem slept with his fathers;"
* Job 4:17. "17Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?"
* Job 7:21 "And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be."
* Job 7:10. "10He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more."
* Job 14:10-12. "10But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep."
* Job 19:25-28. "25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."
* Job 34:14-16. "14If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust."
* Psalms 6:5. "For in death there is no remembrance of thee:in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"
* Psalm 13:3 "Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;"
* Psalm 90:5 "You sweep men away in the sleep of death; they are like the new grass of the morning-"
* Psalms 146:3-4. "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whome there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."
* Ecclesiastes 3:19-20. "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust and all turn to dust again."
* Ecclesiastes 9:4-6,10. "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing [....] Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished [...] Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
* Isaiah 14:18 "All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, everyone in his own house."
* Isaiah 26:19. "19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."
* Ezekiel 18:20."The soul that sinneth, it shall die."
* Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
* Daniel 12:13 "But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."
* Matthew 9:24-27. "24He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. 25But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose. "
* Matthew 16:27. "27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"
* Matthew 27:51-55. "51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, "
* Luke 8:52, 53 "Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. 'Stop wailing,' Jesus said. 'She is not dead but asleep.' They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead."
* John 3:5, 6 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
* John 3:13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven."
* John 5:28-30. "28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
* John 6:39. "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
* John 6:40. "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
* John 6:44. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
* John 6:54. "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
* John 12:48. "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."
* John 11:11-14. "These things said he [Jesus]: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead."
* John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also."
* John 20:17. "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
* Acts 2:29. "29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."
* Acts 2:34 "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand".
* Acts 7:59-62. "59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."
* Acts 13:36 "For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption."
* 1 Corinthians 15:16-50 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished [....] If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die. [�] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: [....] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
* 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52 "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed�in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."
* 2 Corinthians 4:7-5:4 "For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake [....] Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you [....] For which cause we faint not [...] While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."
* James 2:26. "26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
* Ephesians 5:14 "...for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: 'Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.'"
* 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first".
* Hebrews 9:27. "27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
* 1 Timothy 6:16 "who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen."
* 2 Timothy 4:7-8. " 7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."
* 2 Peter 3:4 "[...]for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."
Anyway...I'm starting to feel like you guys are getting a little annoyed with me, lol...but I hope you can see that we're both doing the same thing...defending our beliefs. I'm ready to stop now...I think we all made our points, and it doesn't seem to be going anywhere...just debating the same stuff.
Corinthians does not say we get "spiritual bodies". The bodies we receive are flesh and bone that are united with our spirit. It's important to understand this. Christ's body is flesh and bone just as He said it was.....
Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." NKJV
.... and scriptures tell us we will have a body just like his. It will be immortal. 1 Cor 15:50-54.
Paul also demonstrated that at the moment of death we leave our dead body and we become present with the Lord.
2Cor 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.NKJV
I know it is Walter....I think we all have different interpretations here...when it says spiritual bodies, I'm pretty sure it means heavenly, perfect, immortal, or godly...I was just pointing out that verse because Leon said we get "spiritual" bodies(however he interprets that), and in that verse we "get spiritual bodies" at the resurrection...not when we die....I was just being a smart asteroid, I suppose...
But I would like to ask you what it is, exactly, that has turned your friends against God? I apologize, but I don't understand what it is that's made them mad.
I have found many verses that speak to me, but this is the only one I've found so far that might speak to you:
Eccl. 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the Earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Please don't quit...just give us more to work with....please?
None of us wants bad things for your friends; your friends are our friends; we can do this!!
You mention that fact that "ONLY TWO VERSES" or whatever,. . . as if TRUTH is determined by HOW OFTEN a concept is mentioned.
If it is mentioned ONCE it must be considered. The statement is made by the Holy Spirit and we can't just assume that it can be disregarded because it only occurred once.
Truth is truth.
A hundred verses misapplied and misinterpreted cannot supplant a single verse that plainly and clearly states truth.
All of the verses that are cited, still say say the same thing. They all use the idea of sleep to speak of the dead.
But these verses speak of the BODY being asleep, for two reasons. FIRST is no longer being used, just as in natural sleep, it is resting, and it appears to be resting.
SECOND it is said to be asleep because of the EASE with which God will raise it in that day. Similarly Jesus said that Lazarus was asleep knowing full well that he was dead. BUT Jesus also knew that He was going to wake him.
THE BODY is motionless, decaying. BUT the soul/spirit is in either a place of comfort or torment, CONSCIOUS and sensing pain or pleasure. The righteous are in the presence of the Lord and they are worshiping and communing with one another and with God himself.
The doctrine of soul sleep is nothing new, it has been taught for centuries, but even though there are many verses that speak of death as sleep, ALL of these verses cannot negate the few that show clearly that the soul/spirit is NOT ASLEEP.
Proper interpretation of Scripture NEVER INVOLVES SETTING ONE VERSE AGAINST ANOTHER and then counting the votes as it were. On the contrary the Obvious must be used to explain the Obscure. Even if the direct statement are rare and few, they still must be taken at face value.
Scripture is clear that the dead in their soul/spirit state are awake, conscious, and communicative.
Even before I read your profile I knew that you were presenting SDA beliefs. It is straight out of their doctrinal teaching. Not only is there a promoting of Soul Sleep, but there is also a denial of eternal hell.
I went to your profile and saw that you are Advenitist.
Nevertheless, a thousand verses that mention "sleep" in connection with a dead person will never eliminate the verses that plainly declare that in spirit the dead are conscious and communicative. Plain and simple.
It is not a matter of how many verses you can amass that seem to say that the dead are ASLEEP. There bodies are inactive, but in the spirit these souls of them that sleep are praising God and enjoying his presence, OR the are feeling pain and torment.
If this true cuts across your ideas of the love of God, then you need to change your ideas about God. Truth is truth and our sentimental emotional feminized (EG White) misconceptions about the being and nature of God will not ever change who He really is.
You said, "And hey, this subject ties directly in with hell stuff, so feel free to use all the "eternal punishment" verses too. Those will make it tough on me."
This almost makes it seem as if you view this question as a game, a sporting challenge, a fun little contest. Who will win? Who will find the most AMMO to support his side?
This is really about Truth. If it is about winning a little goofy debate then you need to really examine your relationship with the Savior who told us that Lazarus was conscious and communicative when he died and HE WAS TAKEN TO ABRAHAM'S bosom.
You mean about the people that left the church right? ...cuz I gave a lot of verses that it seems like no one wants to explain...anyway...up a little farther we talked about the verse that said the spirit returns to God...but the point I'm trying to make is that the "spirit" is not a conscious being by itself, and that while our "spirit" might be in heaven...it doesn't mean we're talking with Jesus, or living in our "mansion", or enjoying the river of life. We do not get our "reward" until Jesus comes back. Our body is resting in the grave, and our spirit is with God...but we have to have both to be "alive and conscious"....in my opinion. But anyway...the people that left, didn't leave because they couldn't handle that "our spirits were in heaven"...they did it because the converse belief is that people go right to hell. They could not see the mercy of God in letting people who were were good in comparison with the world...suffer the same punishment...if not more...as the people committing genocide, raping babies, and so on. It was a contradictory belief to "a God of love and mercy". Now there could be all kinds of "sub-beliefs" that get people around that now...as I'm starting to notice...but it's what it started out as that I'm trying to point out...and the whole thing just makes no sense to me on any level...besides the fact that "immortality of the soul" or that we float around as ectoplasmic wisps...are pagan beliefs...in my opinion...again.
But anyway...Yes, I do believe the spirit returns to God. I do believe in "souls". I do not believe they are conscious, or able to "operate" without a body. Peter's spirit is in heaven, but I don't believe he's watching us, or manning the pearly gates, or on the heavenly softball team. I don't believe the souls of the unsaved are burning in hell yet. Everybody that has died is not thinking or talking or floating or burning...they are "resting" in silence until the 2nd coming, that is my belief. Otherwise half the bible doesn't make sense. But...I'm noticing that I had a pretty narrow view of peoples beliefs and sorta grouped them together....which is bad. I'm sorry. And I'm not quitting, this post just seems to keep coming back to the same 3 verses that I already tried to explain...
P.S. These people that left aren't "friends" per se...just people I've met or known about through "life".
:peace::peace:
God: Alright guys...we're winning by 144,000 runs...but it never hurts to "put a few more nails in their coffin" so to speak. Ok...you're up next Moses...I want you to try and bunt it toward 3rd heaven, or if you get an easy pitch...try and hit it into left field. The purple rich guy seems to be a little preoccupied, so we might get lucky. Either way...we need to try and get Peter from 1st to 2nd heaven and into scoring position.
Moses: Are you sure you don't want Aaron to pinch hit for me?
I want to thank Mark and all of you who have participated in this contraversial subject. It has wieghed heavy on my mind for the past couple of days as I reviewed all that was said and I went to the Father for confirmation in His word.
Years ago after recieving Gods' word on this topic it was brought to my mind that we sleep until the coming of the Lord. In every day conversations we hear about a loved one dying and they say "my loved one is in Heaven now," and I would think about what has been said. Maybe it is something we would all like to believe, but is it true? I would say if someone recently past who was close to me they are resting and will soon be in the Glory of Gods' Kingdom.
Paul eagerly waits his citizenship (inhabitance) for the second coming of the Lord when his lowly body will be transformed to His glorious body.
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself (Phil 20-21).
Whatever we believe asleep or alive in spirit we are always in Him and He is in us when we are saved. I look foward to the day of my transformation to His glorious body and be just like Jesus, blameless without a spot.
