Thread: Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
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Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 18 Mar, 2009 11:48 AM
Hi Everyone,
This article I wrote will be dealing with the issue of "Eternal Security" also known as "OSAS" Once Saved Always Saved". This theology is an off shoot from Calvinism's 5th point called "Preseverance of the Saints". What some of you do not know is that the belief of OSAS or "Onced Saved Always Saved" did not exist or come into being until the 1500s AD when John Calvin invented it. Prior to that, no record is found anywhere in Church history that anyone ever believed or taught this. The consistent view of Chritianity has always been that a true Christian could forfeit their salvation should they committ the one sin called Apostasy.
Those who believe in OSAS like Southern and Independent Baptists do will claim that if a person who is truly saved will never commit Apostasy or that if they do then they were never really saved to beign with. The problem with that philosophy is that it is not supported by scripture. If a Christian was not able to commit Apostasy, to deny Christ totally, then why did God in His infinite wisdon have numerous scriptures written to warn Christians of the potential of that very thing? It seems absurd for God to warn His saved Christian children if it were not possible they could forfeit their salvation. Let's look at some scriptures that deal with this.
Let's first deal with a passage where Jesus was giving a private teaching to His 12 Disciples.
John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
I want you to first notice that Jesus is talking about branches that are..."IN ME" in other words in Him, these are Christians, true believers, born again. They are "IN CHRIST".
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide[continue] in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
I have interjected the word [continue] next to "abide" as that is what that word means. It also means to "remain in a given relationship".
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides [continues] in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
Now notice the word ..."IF"...in the next verse. The word "IF" denotes a CHOICE, a person's free will to choose. It is also making a conditional statement...."if you continue".
6 IF...anyone does not abide [continue] in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Verse 6 above is very telling. Christ has placed a condition upon a person's salvation. A person has the Free Will to continue "IN HIM" or not to and notice the consequences "IF" a person does NOT continue. They are CAST OUT, withered and they are BURNED. This is a permanent condition. Eternally condemned. You cannot re-graph a branch that has been cast out, withered and burned. There is no more hope for that "branch", that person.
Let's look at what Paul had to say.
1Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved,.... if.... ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
In the above passage Paul is making a very clear statement. He is stating that a person's salvation is "conditional" by using the phrase "IF" ye keep in memory what I preached unto you". The word "IF" is a conditional word and is in every translation written. 100% of all translators used this word for this phrase as well as the passage below. What both passages are clearly stating is that our Salvation is CONDITIONAL upon our CONTINUED FAITH in the Gospel / Christ. It has nothing at all to do with works. It is our FAITH in Christ, but it is still our choice to remain/ continue or not to. FREE WILL.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ....ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Note that Paul is not telling them of their need to obtain saving faith, but of their need to CONTINUE in their saving faith that they have already obtained and the consequence IF they do not continue which is forfeiture of their salvation. There would be no warnings if the threat and consequence of Apostasy were not real.
Paul consistently encouraged his readers but usually did so after he warned them of the dangers of committing Apostasy. Let me show you a pattern of writings he did regarding salvation, the dangers of "Falling Away" from the Christian Faith Encouragement to continue in the faith and how even he himself potentially could have become an Apostate or "Reprobate"/"Castaway"
Phil 3:9 � and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 � Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.
16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind. NKJV
Acts 20:24 "But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. NKJV
1 Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.
25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.NKJV
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (KJV)
There is an important analogy Paul is giving here. He is making it very clear in my opinion, that in order to receive an "imperishable crown" which we know is the crown of Life, we have to finish the race. We have to cross the finish line. Remember not everyone who is running in this race will cross the finish line.
Notice that Paul is saying that he must keep his flesh in subjection so it does not cause him to loose faith and abandon Jesus Christ. The Greek word for "castaway" is usually translated "reprobate" in the KJV. It is found in Romans 1:28, 2 Cor. 13:5,6,7, 2 Tim. 3:8, Titus 1:16, and Heb. 6:8. In the last passage it is translated "rejected." In every single case this word is used of the lost. If Paul was aware of the ever present peril of ultimately being lost through unbelief, we too need to be on guard.
Paul is again talking about running a race. He must love Track like me. LOL Notice he is encouraging his readers, who are CHRISTIANS I might add, to run the race in such a away as to receive the prize. He is not making any guarantees or any implications that they would finish the race but he encouraged them to do so. This encouragement was also more of a warning to them.
Hebrews 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,NKJV
Same theme. Run the race WITH ENDURANCE. Persevere to the end.
Mat 24: 13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. NKJV
Jesus laid the foundation above that Paul continued to preach upon.
2 Tim 4: 6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand.
Paul knew his time to die was coming very soon and he imparted some final words.
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. NKJV
Paul was ready to die and he made it plain that he had finished the race and that he had KEPT THE FAITH. What is the opposite of keeping the Faith? NOT keeping the faith. Falling back unto UNBELIEF. APOSTASY. Forfeiture of one's Salvation.
There is a distinct difference between Arminian Theology and Weslyan.
Weslyan theology, which is what Assembly of God, Methodists and a few others believe, teaches that a Christian can lose their salvation by committing certain sins like adultery and fornication and then if the person repents then they regain their salvation back. That is simply not biblical and makes their salvation somewhat of a works based faith which is not biblical.
Arminian theology teaches that once a Christian has committed Apostasy, then they can never come back. They can never be forgiven again. Once salvation has been forfeited there is no more hope for that person. Coincidentally, this is also what the Earliest Church Fathers of the first two centuries taught. :-)
There are no number of sins or sins per se that will cause a Christian to lose their salvation. There is only one sin and one sin only that causes a Christian to "Forfeit" their salvation and that sin is called "Apostasy"aka "falling away." That is a total and complete rejection of Christ and His teachings. It is falling back to a state of UNbelief.
What is "Apostasy?"
According to Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, "Apostasy" is defined as "the determined willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian Believer [Heb. 10:26-29; John 15:22]. This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance."
The nature of apostasy requires that one be a believer first, then turn away from God.
Paul warned just as Jesus did that in the last days there WILL BE a "Falling Away" from the faith. In 2Thess 2:3 Paul gave this warning of an event that will occur. So what is it?
Neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of G868; properly something separative, that is, (specifically) divorce: - (writing of) divorcement.
Apostasy is akin to a Divorce. A Christian divorcing from Christ. When this occurs, you are no longer His. You are no longer a Christian. You are no longer saved.
So how does this happen to a Christian?
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of UNBELIEF,...... in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (KJV)
Let's examine some key points here.
1) This passage is clearly addressed to the "Brethern". These are Christians. Jewish Christians but Christians nevertheless.
2) The warning is concerning Christians possibly developing an evil heart of "UNBELIEF" and if so, their departing from the living God. You cannot depart from God unless you are with God to begin with. How does this occur?
3)" lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin". Here we see that staying in a sinful lifestyle can harden a Christian's heart. That is what sin does. It hardens a person's heart to a point that they can fall back to a state of UNbelief and depart from God. This is what Apostasy is. A total rejection of Christ BY a Christian believer. Hardening is something that does not occur over night. It takes time but for each individual that time will vary.
4) 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Here is the condition placed upon our salvation. We are made partakers of Christ, ..."IF" we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. What does that mean? It means that as long as we continue to believe in Christ, then we will remain a partaker of Christ.
Paul also related this same situation to the Christians in Rome. Paul was explaining to these Gentile Christians about unbelieving Israel and how some of the natural branches (Jews) were broken off so that Gentile Christians could be grafted into the vine. Then Paul gives a similar warning as Christ did.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. NKJV
Paul was warning these Gentile Christians not to be haughty but to fear. In other words do not be so secure in thinking that it is not possible for you as a Christian to fall back into "unbelief" and be cut off from God just as some Jews were.
Conclusion.
The scriptures above clearly refute the False teachings of OSAS and "Perseverance of the Faith". Calvinisms 5th point cannot stand.
We as Christians have a responsibility to choose to continue in Christ, "endure until the end" or not to. God does not force salvation on anyone nor does He stop a Christian from committing Apostasy.
1Cor 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 30 Mar, 2009 11:27 AM
Hi Jeff,
First off I think you are getting confused by reading commentaries like Matthew Henry or anyone of "Reformed Theology. Why? Because they do not understand Arminian theology and most often twist it. You should rely on scriptures and take them at their face value.
You said:
(My comment) It is God's heart and His will that every person become saved. But clearly not every one gets saved or stays saved.
seems to contradict this verse.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
WALTER: This is not a contradiction at all. It is true that God will show mercy to those He chooses. But this is before the cross. This is before the NEW Covenant of Grace. The dispensation on how God deals with man now is different. God's character and holiness never changes but how He has dealt with men over history does change.
WALTER: so is God willing to show mercy to all? or to some? Henry's "commentary" is not the proper interpretation of scriptures. This is where you are getting confused and will continue to get confused unless you fully rely on the scriptures.
Let's look at this again.
1 Tim 2:1-6
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH
God's wants all men....all men....all mankind....every individual to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
Why is God's will not accomplished here Jeff? Because God places limits on His own sovereignty and allows man to have total Free Will.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom.... FOR ALL, to be testified in due time.(KJV)
Who did Jesus die for? ALL...not just an elect some.
JEFF: another beef i have with the arminian view is that, it doesnt give 100% of the glory to God... it gives 95% to God and the 5% to us..
WALTER: That is simply false and it tells me that you do not have a handle on Arminian theology. It has been skewed by reading too many commentaries from other people who do not understand Arminian theology or are biased. Arminians give God 100% of the glory without question.
WALTER: if God gives us a choice, then the rest of it is up to us... we then take the next step which by accepting his gift we sort of save outselves... that takes glory from God. but if God saves you all by himself, 100% of the glory goes to him.
if its up to me to accept his gift, then i can boast... God makes sure that we cant boast... arminian belief contradicts that.
WALTER: Again you are imposing Calvinists theology, which you claim you don't believe in and then trying to twist what Arminians teach and believe.
Jeff...is a "GIFT" something that is imposed or must a person "ACCEPT" a gift in order to "receive" that gift? God gave us a gift. That gift is Christ His son who paid the price FOR US....for ALL mankind and this GIFT is not imposed but is offered to those who choose to receive it. If a person chooses to accept this GIFT does that mean that all of a sudden we are the ones who paid the price of that gift? NO! We are merely accepting that gift that was already bought and paid for by Christ Jesus.
Even after God's election of Saul to be king of Israel, God later rejected him.
1 Sam 15:23
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(KJV)
Even though this passage is not really talking about salvation, there is a clear principle that is evident in the story of Saul. The same precedent regarding God's "election" to be the king can also be applied to God's "election" regarding individual salvation. God "chose" a man knowing full well that later He would reject that same man, and remove him from being king. This concept flies in the face of Calvinism's five points.
Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation... HATH APPEARED TO ALL MEN. (KJV)
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. WHOEVER desires, LET HIM TAKE THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY.
Here is an offer from the Spirit and the BRIDE [the church, Christians, addressing non-believers] An offer to take the water of life.....FREELY.
2 Pet 1:10
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: FOR IF YE DO THESE THINGS, ye shall never.... FALL:(KJV)
Peter pointed out that it is up to us to make our "calling and election" sure. The word "fall" here is talking about falling from Grace.
JEFF: God knew us before the foundation of the earth was made. he already loved us in eternity. he knew his sheep in eternity. there is just to much dumbing God down to human reasoning with the arminian view. the arminian view makes him seem more human... it makes him more responsive to us... But God has forknowledge and is all knowing, which means he doesnt respond to us.
WALTER: That is simply very bad logic Jeff. You are using Calvinistic reasoning. You simply do not understand Arminian theology.
JEFF: example:Arminian
John: Lord i accept you into my heart, i accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross for my sins, and i repent.
God's response: John i love you, and i forgive you... i am so happy you have accepted my gift. I will now give you the Holy spirit so that he will guide you and change you...
5 years later.....
John: i love booze, pornos and strip clubs.
Gods response: John i am taking my spirit from you now.
WALTER: This is where you went way off course and have grossly misrepresented Arminian theology. STOP listening to Calvinistic teachings that twist what we believe. You are using Wesleyan theology and applying it to Arminian theology. Bad move brother. You are mixing theologies. No wonder you are so confused. LOL
JEFF: 3 years later
John: Forgive me Lord i have sinned!
Gods response: you can have the holy spirit back and i forgive you again... you are once again my child.
WALTER: That is not Arminian, but Wesleyan. God does not forgive apostasy and a person cannot be re-saved.
JEFF: so then why did he give him the Holy spirit in the first place? why did God forgive him, if he knew he was going to commit appostacy. that makes God seem very responsive... if God knows the future, then he doesnt respond to anything.
WALTER: Do you see how bad your logic is and do you see why it is? You are mixing theologies and the commentaries of Reformers have twisted the scriptures and have grossly misrepresented Arminian theology. I am sorry but the rest is just as bad.
JEFF: maybe i am going crazy?
WALTER: I think my Brother you are just totally confused and grossly misinformed. You have been studying the wrong materials and rely too heavily on the commentaries of men, in my opinion.
If you want to understand what Arminian Theology really is then go here. www.pfrs.org This will help in our discussions.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 30 Mar, 2009 11:32 AM
Error correction
This should have been credited to JEFF speaking not me.
JEFF: if God gives us a choice, then the rest of it is up to us... we then take the next step which by accepting his gift we sort of save outselves... that takes glory from God. but if God saves you all by himself, 100% of the glory goes to him.
if its up to me to accept his gift, then i can boast... God makes sure that we cant boast... arminian belief contradicts that.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 31 Mar, 2009 08:45 AM
Because they do not understand Arminian theology and most often twist it.- Walter...
and they could just say ditto? its no different then two people on opposing sides. both sides say to eachother "your wrong, your distorting the truth" and both sides say " i have verses to prove it" and both sides say "no you dont, you twisted the meaning of the verses"
"This is not a contradiction at all. It is true that God will show mercy to those He chooses. But this is before the cross. This is before the NEW Covenant of Grace. The dispensation on how God deals with man now is different. God's character and holiness never changes but how He has dealt with men over history does change."-walter
how do you believe people were saved before the cross?
WALTER: This is not a contradiction at all. It is true that God will show mercy to those He chooses. But this is before the cross. This is before the NEW Covenant of Grace. The dispensation on how God deals with man now is different. God's character and holiness never changes but how He has dealt with men over history does change.
so before the cross he wasnt willing that all men should come to him? instead he elected some? did he not love everyone before the cross? since that verse applies to the people of the old testament? for jacob he loved and esau he hated? and then Jesus dies on the cross and he is willing to show mercy to everyone? but not before?
did God know he was going to change how he deals with men? did he do it intentionaly? did he have plans for it before the foundation of the earth? or did man suprise him? and so he changed how he deals with them... why did he change? for some reason we dont know why? or was it because he later realized he was being to tough on us? or do you have a better explaination with verses to support?
yes he had different covenants and what not, but he didnt make them in response to us... he already had plans for a savior before the foundation of the earth.
are we to ignore everything in the old testament because of the new covenant? what God said before the cross has no application now? do you pick and choose which verses were meant
and from what i remember reading... i didnt do to much dealings with the covenants, but that is also a debatable subject.
"Jeff...is a "GIFT" something that is imposed or must a person "ACCEPT" a gift in order to "receive" that gift? God gave us a gift. That gift is Christ His son who paid the price FOR US....for ALL mankind and this GIFT is not imposed but is offered to those who choose to receive it. If a person chooses to accept this GIFT does that mean that all of a sudden we are the ones who paid the price of that gift? NO! We are merely accepting that gift that was already bought and paid for by Christ Jesus."-walter4you
here you apply human logic to the word gift... i will do the same... If superman saved a man from a jumping building thats the type of gift God is giving us. if that man said "no superman let me die!" that would be him resisting the gift. but would superman listen to him? of course not... he wouldnt say, "you have free will, so if thats what you want" the gift of life is not just any gift... its not like when you offer to give some one money and he turns it down. its a gift of life. the gift is his saving grace. who would let their child choose death because "hey he has free will, let him do what he wants."
"WALTER: That is not Arminian, but Wesleyan. God does not forgive apostasy and a person cannot be re-saved."
Apostacy is rejecting christ right? some one who "backslides" is not rejecting christ. but if i am wrong, then i am not saved. because i have done something very similar to John. i accepted God, and then after awhile i turned away from him... i turned to my "homies" and to "booze" and to "parties". but i now longer do that, and cant see myself ever going back, sure i fail to resist temptations, but I love God more then i ever have before. words can not describe how awesome, loving, powerful, merciful God is. i get teary eyed typing this. so, since i supposedly turned from God, is it to late for me? and for all the other people who have once accepted God, and then turned from him?
you say the verses support your belief and that is apostacy, but i have seen people "backslide" and then get back on track. the bible says God will chastize those he loves... i am always being chastized, even more in the past. calvinists say God will never let you get to far from him. the Holy spirit will convict you of your sin, if you go to far. this is what has happened to me.
anyways, you always make good points, and use supportive verses. but i still see the contradictions, because i havnt seen you try to explain any calvinists views... why dont you try to explain away that commentary i posted (from another website)... its not all calvinist nor is it all arminian. but you probably disagree with most of it...
oh and if you dont mind, i emailed someone with your posts... i want to see if anyone can explain those verses in a different light... i cant seem to do it myself.i cant even match those verses to that commentary i posted awhile back
i did see John calvins explaination to
"4 WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH"
some of it made sense, it was really long and i had a hard time understanding him... he reminds me of master yoda... wise, but always speaking backwards... anyways.
p.s. walter can we use the nkjv from now on? the kjv is less reliable... to many typo's and errors... words added, and meanings added/ and or taken away. the nkjv version is more reliable.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 31 Mar, 2009 09:50 AM
Christ says, �All that the Father GIVES Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of ALL HE has GIVEN Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
Not that Christ might do this if men desire to come, but that He will do this as a result of His saving power and plan and they will come. Not everyone is a �child of God� or a �sheep of God�s pasture.�
Jesus says in John 10:25-30, �I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because YOU ARE NOT of MY SHEEP, as I said to you. MY SHEEP hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one."
In addition, the God of the Bible is sovereign over the flesh of all men.
John 17:2 says, ��as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have GIVEN Him.� The Apostle Paul says in Philippians 2:13, ��for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.� God does not hope men will come, He changes men so that they will come and they will believe.
verses and comentary coppied and pasted...
i dont want to just keep throwing verses at eachother... thats very typical of a calv vs armin debate.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 2 Apr, 2009 11:32 AM
Hi Jeff,
You said:
Christ says, �All that the Father GIVES Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of ALL HE has GIVEN Me I.. [should ]..lose nothing, but [should] raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
WALTER:I bracketed the critical word you missed above in your quote. I think you are so focused on God's sovereignty that you are overlooking critical areas. Jeff the argument is not about God's sovereignty. Arminians agree that God is sovereign. The problem is that Calvinists take God's sovereignty and lose sight that God places His own limits on His sovereignty by allowing man to have Free will. Let's examine the grammar you missed.
WALTER: I think it is important to point out a critical piece of grammar you seem to be overlooking. Notice the word "SHOULD"
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I.... SHOULD.... lose nothing, but SHOULD... raise it up again at the last day. NKJV
The word "should" is not the same as "shall". If the word "shall" had been used then you would have a better argument but the word "Should" was used instead. This word denotes something not as being certain but only a possibility. The word is better translated "MAY" but "should" will suffice.
JEFF: Not that Christ might do this if men desire to come, but that He will do this as a result of His saving power and plan and they will come. Not everyone is a �child of God� or a �sheep of God�s pasture.�
WALTER: I disagree with most of youR conclusion as it does not take into account the whole counsel of God. I agree with you that not everyone ends up as one of God's sheep. However...it does not mean that God and Jesus did not draw them. Let me show you these scriptures again that you have not harmonized into your belief.
John 1:8-12
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, WHICH LIGHTETH EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
(KJV)
John 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME (KJV)
Did Jesus say only an "elect" few? No. He said ALL MEN. He draws ALL men unto Himself.
Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation HATH APPEARED TO ALL MEN (KJV)
Christ enlightens "EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD!" He draws "ALL MEN" unto Himself.
Did Jesus suffer and die for just the "Elect" or for the whole world?
1 John 2: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only,...BUT ALSO... for the sins of the whole world. (KJV)
1 Tim 2:1-6
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom FOR ALL, to be testified in due time.(KJV)
Since God is sovereign Jeff why is it that His sovereign will in this is not accomplished? He genuinely wants ALL men to be SAVED but yet we know that not all men become saved. Why is that? Jesus draws ALL men to Himself, He died for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD, Enlightens EVERY man that comes into the world, ..YET not all men get saved. Why Jeff? Calvinism cannot stand in light of these scriptures and they are a complete refutation of that theology. However Arminian theology harmonizes this perfectly. God is sovereign but He chooses to limit His own sovereignty to allow man to have Free Will to choose. More on that later. Let me finish with your post.
JEFF: Jesus says in John 10:25-30, �I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because YOU ARE NOT of MY SHEEP, as I said to you. MY SHEEP hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one."
WALTER: Again I see you are missing what the grammar says. Let's look at the grammar and see why you are misinterpreting this passage.
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;
What is the assumption here Jeff? They are His sheep. This is a condition that they are "present tense" His sheep. This does not address a person's free will to abandon Christ. You cannot take this verse and assume that Apostasy is not possible. Other verses address that when we consider the whole counsel of God's Word.
neither shall... ANYONE.. snatch...THEM... out of My hand.
Please notice the grammar here Jeff in the above last part of verse 28. The words "ANYONE" and "THEM" are third person plural. Grammatically you cannot include the first person singular within that context. In other words it is true that no one can take you away from Christ but it does not say that you cannot walk away, deny Christ yourself. Verse 29 below is the same situation grammatically.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
I am going to CAP the word in your quote below that is also important to address so as to save space and not re-quote the scripture.
JEFF: In addition, the God of the Bible is sovereign over the flesh of all men.
John 17:2 says, ��as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He ...."SHOULD"... give eternal life to as many as You have GIVEN Him.�
WALTER: Again we see that the word "SHOULD" is used and not "shall". Should or "may" are rendered properly and denote something that is not certain or permanent. There is also something else in all these passages in these chapters that you have provided in John, that you are overlooking the context. Ask yourself....at this point in time who did God GIVE to Jesus? Who were His followers up to this point?
The DISCIPLES of Jesus.
Now...let's look at a few passages that will bring this point home concerning these passages in John that you brought up.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; THAT THE SCRIPTURE MIGHT BE FULFILLED
Here we see that the persons Jesus was referring to are not Christians as a whole but specifically and exclusively the Apostles. Jesus did not lose any of the apostles except Judas whom He calls "the son of perdition."
The scripture was fulfilled at Jesus' arrest in the garden. See below.
John 18:8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
9 THAT THE SAYING MIGHT BE FULFILLED, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none. KJV
In verse 8 above while Jesus was being arrested in the garden, He told His captures to leave His Apostles alone. That they had obtained who they were seeking. Additionally John continues and says that this was said and done "that the saying might be fulfilled". ....What saying?..... John is referring back to John 6:39 and John 17:12. In each instance Jesus was referring specifically to the Apostles and not Christians as a whole. We therefore cannot take these passages and then apply them to mean or include anyone else. These verses do not support OSAS or Eternal Security as they do NOT apply to us Christians.
JEFF: The Apostle Paul says in Philippians 2:13, ��for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.�
God does not hope men will come, He changes men so that they will come and they will believe.
WALTER: The Verse above from Paul has an obvious assumption. The people he is addressing are Christians. The verse does not address the issue of Apostasy nor does it assume that man will continue to remain in Christ. John 15.
I have already demonstrated that God calls ALL MEN, wants ALL men to be saved, wants ALL me to repent, Yet not all men do. Christ calls ALL men to Himself. However we see that not all men respond. Why? Because God gives men the Free Will to choose, the free will to accept. The Free Will to resist the Holy Spirit even after salvation. Let me quote an analogy my Pastor gave in one of his articles.
Blessings!
Walter
http://www.pfrs.org/calvinism/calvin04.html
The Calvinism - Arminianism debate hinges on one question. Everything else is an attempt to harmonize the biblical data with the answer to this question. Who makes the decision regarding salvation � God or man? "Provision" is not at issue. That is God's alone. "Power" is not at issue. It is all of God. The Calvinist says God alone makes the "provision" for a few. He alone has the "power" to save. And the choice is His alone. The Arminian says God made provision for all. The power to save is God's alone. The choice is mans' only when God enables him to choose, and provides him with what is necessary to believe. His choice is between continuing to resist God's grace, or to stop resisting God's grace.
The Calvinist claims that any effort on man's part, no matter how small, constitutes "works," making man responsible for his own salvation. This has been the main reason for Calvinism's wide acceptance among Evangelicals. However, it is a false premise, and leads to false conclusions.
The whole issue really revolves around "resistance." Arminians agree that man is totally incapable of saving himself. We agree that man is even incapable of contributing to his own salvation in the slightest way. We will go so far as to say that man cannot even choose of his own free will to receive the gift of God unless God first enables him to do so. However, we also believe that God gives all people this ability through the power inherent in the Gospel, in conjunction with the Holy Spirit's drawing all men. The issue then is whether or not man resists the Holy Spirit until He draws them no more, or whether they stop resisting the Spirit at some point, and God saves them.
Let's use the example of a drowning man who cannot swim. This analogy has commonly been used in the Calvinism - Arminian debate. Calvinists falsely portray the Arminian position as God's throwing man a life preserver, and man's reaching out to grab it, and clinging to it by his own strength. Consequently, man must ACT on his own behalf (reaching for the life preserver), and continuing to act in cooperation with God's pulling him to safety (by continuing to cling to it). Man's own strength in reaching for the life preserver, and holding on to it, contributes to his being rescued. This might be a true representation of Pelagianism or even semi-Pelagianism held by Catholics, but not consistent Arminianism. It is a false analogy.
The true analogy would be that Jesus jumps into the water to save the drowning sinner. He swims to Him, reaches out and grabs him. He repeatedly shouts to him to stop struggling, and He will save him. He continues to warn him that his own struggling will make it impossible to save him. And He continues to grab hold of the man, attempting to pull him to safety. The drowning man can either continue to struggle to save himself, resisting Christ's persistent and longsuffering efforts to save him, or he can trust Christ, stop resisting and fighting against the water, and allow Christ to pull him to safety. If he stops fighting and resisting, and relaxes, trusting Christ to save him, he will be saved. If he persists in his own struggle, he will drown.
"Resistance is futile" only in the sense that resistance necessarily leads to damnation.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 2 Apr, 2009 07:51 PM
while this isnt directly on apostacy, it is talking about being of the elect which has a lot to do with apostacy... if your elected by God then you can not commit apostacy. that is the arguement... cause if you commit apostacy, then you are not of Gods elect, not saved, never was saved, not a "true" christian, not his "sheep" and if your elected by God, then(one of his sheep)... thats not an arminian view.
listen to the order of the passage...
"you do not believe(why?) because you are not my sheep"
if it said
"your are not my sheep , because you do not believe"
then i would never had used this verse in the first place... you have to take it into context.
i just saw this and already noticed your mistake on these verses with out doing any research.
anyways, i "should" do a little more research on those verses you keep using.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 2 Apr, 2009 08:51 PM
Jeff,
Sorry but you are not applying the verse properly about the Pharisees and you certainly are not taking into consideration what Apostasy is. It has a very specific meaning and only a True Born Again believer can commit that specific sin. An unbeliever can never commit that sin because you have to be a Christian first. The mere definition of Apostasy refutes your entire argument.
2 Thess 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless THE FALLING AWAY comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, NKJV
The term "Falling Away" is the word we get Apostasy from. The Greek word is Apostasia.
G646
apostasia pronounced ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), ("apostasy"): - falling away, forsake.
G647
apostasion pronounced ap-os-tas'-ee-on
Neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of G868; properly something separative, that is, (specifically) divorce: - (writing of) divorcement.
In essence this is describing a Christian divorcing themselves from Christ. Divorcing from THE Faith. Just as you cannot divorce someone you are not married to you cannot divorce yourself from Christ unless you are already with Christ. You cannot "Fall Away" FROM the Faith unless you already had the Faith to Fall Away from.
Are you seeing this?
The interesting thing about Apostasy is that a NON-believer cannot be one. Only a true Born Again Believer, i.e. Christian can commit this particular act.
According to Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, "Apostasy" is defined as "the determined willful rejection of Christ and His teachings BY A CHRISTIAN BELIEVER [Heb. 10:26-29; John 15:22]. This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance."
The nature of apostasy requires that one be a believer first, then turn away from God.
So as we can see clearly from the Greek the word Apostasy has one specific meaning and by the way, you cannot change the root meaning of any Greek word. It is what it is irregardless of ones theological belief.
Here's a couple of examples of Apostasy.
1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some.... SHALL DEPART FROM THE FAITH,.... giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; KJV
Please notice the "definite article" "THE"used here. "THE" preceding "Faith" meaning "THE FAITH" demonstrates a specific faith and that is the True Christian Faith. To depart FROM "the faith" you have to have The Faith to begin with and not some mental ascent. If it was just a mental ascent and not a heart conversion here then it makes no sense because a person who only has a mere mental ascent does NOT have the Faith anyway. You simply cannot fall away from a Faith you do not really have.
1 Cor 9:27
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a CASTAWAY. (KJV)
I am going to borrow this last comment from my buddy Tim from an article he wrote at www.pfrs.org
"Paul is saying he must keep his flesh in subjection so it does not cause him to loose faith and abandon Christ. The Greek word for "castaway" is usually translated "REPROBATE" in the KJV. It is found in Romans 1:28, 2 Cor. 13:5,6,7, 2 Tim. 3:8, Titus 1:16, and Heb. 6:8. In the last passage it is translated "rejected." In every single case this word is used of the lost. If Paul was aware of the ever present peril of ultimately being lost through unbelief, we too need to be on guard."
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 2 Apr, 2009 08:59 PM
Jeff,
When you say you are going to do some research do you mean you are going to look for commentaries about these verses or are you just going to rely on what the scriptures actually say?
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 2 Apr, 2009 10:35 PM
i do both... i compare commentaries with other commentaries, and yes i also look at the actual scripture. i compare the commentaries with the scripture, to see if the verses actually support the commentaries...
are you going to say that you came up with your belief all by yourself? or just by reading straight from the bible?
or
did you study the studies of other people also to come up with your reasoning. did you compare notes? commentaries? or did you just come to your reasoning all by yourself?
anyways... like most debates, this one isnt ending.
if one gets angry with the lord... and he holds a grudge against God, is that an act of apostacy?
on your first post you said there is no verses that support calvinism... i have shown you otherwise by giving you plenty of verses that contradict your view... except for a few you have responded to, you dont tackle them... you havnt told me that you disagree and why you disagree... but instead you just keep reposting the same verses to prove your point... i thought you were going to respond to that whole commentary that i coppied and pasted...
why did i copy it and paste it instead of typing all of it by myself? why would i type all that myself, if i can just copy and paste... saves me a lot of time. as long as i read it and agree with it, before i post it. i see nothing wrong with that.
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
what do you make of this verse? is the meaning of this verse as obvious to you as it is to me? or are you going to tear this verse apart as well to suit your own meaning? do you see 2 conditions? what about the word "all" in this verse... who is Jesus talking about? "all" by itself can mean everyone in the whole wide world. but what does it say in the context?
anyways walter4u, God bless you.
i pray if your right, then that you never commit appostacy. if your right then, dont be so confident in your salvation either... your going to have to work hard to keep your faith ;) if this appostacy is true.
