I have tried very hard, searching the scriptures to prove your doctrines as truth. However, such scripture has eluded me.
This is a very simple request.
Can you provide me with 4 scriptures and 4 scriptures only?
One each for the first 4 points of reformed doctrine.
1) Total Depravity ~ Need a scripture that says plainly man lost the ability to choose as a result of the fall. (Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
2) Unconditional Election ~ Need a Scripture that plainly says God chooses from all men unconditionally a few to save. (Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
3) Limited Atonement ~ Need a scripture that plainly says Christ's Atonement on the cross only covers a few, not the whole world. ( Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
4) Irresistible Grace ~ Need a Scripture that plainly says no man can resist the Grace of God. (Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
*If you all cannot provide one plain straight forward scripture for each point, then it is quite plain you have gone beyond Scripture ....wouldn't you agree?
No I did not say that Ishmal was Israel, I said Jacob was called Israel by God. Ishmal was Abraham's first son in the flesh with his madi servant. Isaac was the son through whom God made the promise to Abraham would come, Isaac and Jacob...the Edomites were not given any kind of promise of mercy blessing from God.
2sparrow, you really know and understand how all this fits togethers? and do you know about the Edomites and and Esau is called Edom. how he married out of rebellion and anger against the warning not to married outside the Jews, aww forget!:excited::ROFL:...moving on:yay:
I take great offense to accusations from you that I am "spinning God's word"...Great Offense. I have always treated you with the utmost respect, not only because you are sister in Christ, but also because you are a woman. However, you have just crossed the line. You are forgiven, and I do not hold it against you. However, you have used up my patience.
2sparrow, sorry, my bad... I should have known without spelling everything out on this forum, my comment would be taken personal comment, unless I spelled it out... I too, have grown impatience with people who are so sensitive to everything little thing another person has to say. But I do understand, and your comment voices your most inner being...
My comment should have included behind the word you (generic)... which means not speaking directly to you ...or about you. In fact, the comment its self is much to do about nothing, and was as a general comment, that YOU took personally, that I posted in response to YOUR comment and in the same spirit you posted your comment to me about being dizzy.
Nevertheless, thank you for expressing your inner feelings, they are real, and I respect this, and appreciate your openingness.
Sorry, if you became offend by such a minor infraction on my part, for not making sure I had made it clear and included behind the word you (generic), I should have known better, but in the same spirit of your post to me, I responded to you.
ET, I posted the whole Potter story a while back in another thread and it explains the heart of our Father quite clearly. Just because the Potter may know what that vessel is created for and will turn out to be, does not mean that He pre-destined it for hell or the junk pottery pile. The destiny of the pottery is determined by it's condition and usefulness. (free will)
James replies:
Baloney! Not only do you NOT have any Scripture that says that the only reason God "chooses" someone because of what they might do in the future", but you DO have Scriptures that say point blank it was NOT because of anything a person would do in the future!
Romans 9
11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad�in order that God�s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls� 12she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
You actually said: "The destiny of the pottery is determined by its usefulness and free will"
UH....that is flat out CONTRADICTING THE TEXT!!!!
Romans 9
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory�
THE POTTER, decides what to make out of the clay.
Joey sings:
Final salvation is conditioned upon continuing in the way of faith and bringing forth the "fruit" of Christian living. Jesus said, "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit" (John 15:5). Those unfruitful ones who do not remain in Christ (presented here as a real possibility, if words have meaning) are "picked up, thrown into the fire and burned" (15:6).
James replies:
Oh so NOW...words have meaning?
LOL!!
Those who do not "remain" show that they never were truly saved in the first place.
Joey sings continues:
Paul told the Colossians they were reconciled by Christ "holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation" (Col. 1:22). But he was careful to qualify that statement: "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel" (v.23).
James replies:
1. True faith does endure to the end.
2. It is anchored in "hope" and not works.
Paul is not teaching that you can lose your salvation, he is just saying "If you are truly saved".
Joey sings continues:
Ezekiel 18:23: "Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?"
How can God, who is perfectly just, "command all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30), knowing the command is impossible to obey?
James replies:
Because Adam and Eve were OUR PERFECT representatives.
we would have done the same thing they did.
And God would be just if decided to save everyone, or NO ONE!
NO ONE will get injustice! The majority will get JUSTICE, and number larger than anyone can count will get incredible MERCY.
There is no injustice with God.
God is soverign and we are created in his image. Can you imagine purposely having a child for the sole purpose of evil or using them for evil. Yes, true satanists impregnate young girls for the purpose of sacrificing their babies, but they are EVIL. The girls have no say in it. I do not see my God this way and there has been enough scripture in these MANY Calvinist threads to make a case in the Supreme court.
James replies:
Now, THAT is the Arminian "reasoning" I am used to!
So Paul says: "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory�"
And YOUR answer is "NO, God does NOT have a right to do with His creation as He pleases!"
You need to repent of this attitude, and realize that HE is God and He DOES have the right to do with His creation as He pleases.
And not only that, but that God is Merciful and loving, and His love towards His people is not a vague sentimental love of the Arminian, but rather an ALL POWERFUL love that ACCOMPLISHES His Love to EACH ONE of His elect.
NOTHING can snatch them from His hand, and EACH and EVERY Christian is as safe from Hell, as they would be if they were in Heaven right now!
Joey sings continues:
Total Inability also seems to oppose the Bible teaching concerning hardness of heart. The Scriptures warn us that those who repeatedly trifle with sin may sear their consciences (1 Tim. 4:2), render themselves "past feeling" (Eph. 4:19) and enter into a hardening of the heart toward God and His truth. This is not a condition of birth, but seems to be a consequence of repeated sin.
James replies:
Yes, IF......you IGNORE the twenty or so verses that speak of fallen mans spiritual condition.
Psalm 51:5; Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did
my mother conceive me.
Psalm 58:3; The wicked go astray from the womb, the err from their
birth, speaking lies.
Romans 8:7,8; For the MIND that is set on the flesh is hostile to
God; IT does not submit to God's law, indeed it CANNOT; and those who
are in the flesh CANNOT PLEASE GOD.
1 Corinthians 2:14: The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts
of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and, HE IS NOT ABLE
TO UNDERSTAND THEM because they are spiritually discerned.
Joey sings continues:
Isaiah speaks of this condition: "Why, O Lord, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?" (Isa. 63:17) The hardening of the heart which precludes reverence of God is here described as a condition that has come upon these people, probably as a judgment for rebellion. But Calvinists tell us that this condition - an invincible anti-God bent - is the birth-condition of all human beings.
James replies:
Yes Joey, and Christians have been saying that for two thousand years. WHY?
Gen. 6:5; The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the
earth, and that EVERY IMAGINATION OF THE THOUGHTS OF HIS HEART WAS
ONLY EVIL CONTINUALLY.
Gen. 8:21...The imagination of man's heart is EVIL from his youth..
Ecclesiastes 9:3...The HEARTS of men are FULL OF EVIL, and madness is
in their hearts while they live...
Jeremiah 17:9; The HEART IS DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS, and
DESPERATELY CORRUPT; who can understand it?
Joey sings continues:
For the most part, it seems likely that Christians will persevere in their faith until the end. But that does not preclude the possibility of forsaking that narrow way leading to life. We must be on guard, as the Scriptures warn us repeatedly, but we have ample reason to be hopeful if we are following Christ.
James replies:
I am glad you admit the evidence of Scripture points to True Christians persevering to the end. Jesus said that He would not lose even ONE of the sheep that God had given Him.
The FACT is the Bible teaches that God CAUSES His chosen people to persevere to the end. He does this in many ways, and God expect us to KNOW that we are SAFE in Christ.
If you believe a true Christian can lose their salvation you end up in legalism, and you end up being an ineffectual Christian, because you will never believe you are truly saved!
Joey sings continues:
Calvinism is one more illustration of the futility of systematic theology.
James replies:
I think that is a really dumb statement. Systematic theology is just looking at what every single bit of evidence is concerning a certain topic in Scripture. You know, the very people you are against, the Calvinists, are the ones who first put chapter and verse numbers in the Bible! They did this to help Bible study, so we could COMPARE and LIST Scriptures!!
What is wrong with looking at every verse of Scripture in the entire Bible on say, Angels, so we can understand the complete teaching of the Word of God concerning Angels?
Joey sings:
God's truths, particularly relating to soteriology, are too lofty to be put into concise formula. The Five Points of Calvinism oversimplify the profound truths of God. They derive their force from proof-texts rather than the general tenor of Scripture.
James replies:
The general tenor of Scripture????? You mean, Arminians making God into Santa Clause and elevating fallen man, while pretending that some of the Glory of God belongs to us?
Concise formulas are necessary because of heretics, and this has been the case since the beginning. The apostles Creed, confessions of faith, and doctrinal statements are all necessary and good.
Joey sings:
More than that, the doctrines frequently create a spirit of division, elitism and theological snobbery. The system erects WALLS between believers. It creates a class of Christians within the church general who are supposedly part of a worthy "inner circle."
James replies:
"the doctrines" You mean that Calvinism makes Christians into snobbs who think they are better than the average Arminian Christian? Well, I certainly hope not! It is possible, but not even close to being common. What SHOULD happen is the Calvinist should be HUMBLE and GRATEFUL for God showing them mercy, and realizing that it is ONLY God's mercy towards them that made them to differ from the worst sinner!
Joey sings:
Many Calvinists read nothing but Reformed titles, hence these brethren seldom learn new perspectives.
James replies:
One of the complaints against Calvinists is that they read too many books. I have said this before on this group, and I guess I have to say it again: "If you attend a Calvinist church you WILL hear the word "Arminian"and you WILL learn the verses they use, and know the difference between the two, and learn the history of the Reformation. HOWEVER, IF you attend an Arminian church you will NEVER hear the word Arminian, or Calvinism, and they will IGNORE ALL THE VERSES that contradict Arminianism!!" Since all Christians are naturally Arminian, they win by default and trickery.
Joey sings:
On the contrary, they are continually reaffirming their own "theological correctness." Such authors such as A. W. Pink, the Puritans, John Murray and such publishing companies as Banner of Truth become the sole staple for many. I say without intending offense that such exclusiveness differs little from that of Jehovah's Witnesses or other authoritarian groups."
James replies:
Wow! So, Reading every Christian theologian throughout church history, and focusing on the best theologians, who are all Reformed by the way...is JUST LIKE Jehovah's Witness, who are only ALLOWED to read books written by the Watchtower group?
Joey sings:
TS has made himself quite clear with unlimited scriptures and explanations. James has done a lot of copy and paste along with his unmovable position, scriptures and comments. And as far as I'm concerned...Jesus would have been silent threads ago. In the multitude of words, sin is not absent.
James replies:
"Jesus would have been silent threads ago"?
Good grief!
On that note, Joey sings, here is Jesus giving evidence for both Unconditional Election, AND perseverance of the Saints:
John 6:44; NO ONE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS the Father who sent me
DRAWS HIM; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 44: 45~ It is written in the prophets, And they shall be ( all ) taught of God. ( Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.)
46~ Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47~ ~Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
