Thread: Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 25 Jun, 2010 08:53 AM
Whilst there is more to Calvinism than five points, these are the major points on which Calvinism rests. They are called the T-U-L-I-P. Point 1, Total Depravity; Point 2, Unconditional Election; Point 3, Limited Attonement; Point 4, Irresistable Grace; and Point 5, Perseverence of the Saints.
Point 1, Total Depravity. Simply put, this doctrine says that all mankind, since the fall, has been totally depraved. That man, both individually and generally, is totally debased and corrupt, that he is unable to think or do anything good outside of God's Providence.
Now what is my problem with this? It's the word, "total." Certainly the Bible teaches the depravity of man, but I don't see the total aspect of it. You see the scripture is generalized when it speaks of the wickedness of man. For example, Genesis 6.5 says, "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." That sounds kinda bad. But it is still a general statement regarding the moral condition of mankind. Obviously, it wasn't individual. Because in verse 8 we are told that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Was Noah totally depraved? Nowhere does the text indicate that. Of course the Calvinist would say that God gave grace to Noah. But that is unsupported by the text as well. The idea that Noah obeyed God suggests there was some good in him. Or maybe Noah wasn't included in God's assessment in verse 5. And, if Noah wasn't included in verse 5, then that shows the generallity of the statement. No matter how you try to explain it, Noah was different.
We can look at mankind today, with all the murders, the wars, the rapes, the threats from one government to another suggesting that annhilation is right around the corner, and conclude that man is depraved, eventhough there are some righteous people on the earth, of which can be said God found grace in His eyes.
I once knew an atheist, and he was till he died. Yet, this man was the one of the most giving man I ever knew. I use to visit his used bookstore, and one day I told him I was thirsty, and asked if I could have a glass of water. Without hesitation, he brought me a glass of water. I remember, one time someone was looking at a book, and it was marked $.50. They only had a quarter. He sold them that book for a quarter. He use to donate books to various charities when they had book drives, which they in turn sold with the proceeds going to that charity. Yet, by Calvinistic definition, he was totally depraved. Of course, they would probably say that eventhough he was totally depraved, he filled some purpose in God's Providence.
The problem I have with the Calvinistic doctrine of total depravity is that it can neither be proved or disproved. Certainly, in general the scriptures do teach the depravity of man, but not individually. But then again, there is God's providence. I know there was a time I was financially in very bad shape. A man took pity on me and helped me. Later, he was charge with some kind of financial crime, whether embezzelment, or something like that. He had two businesses, and he stole money from one business to keep the other going. He didn't pay taxes, nor social security for any of his employees. He took the money off their checks, but somehow, it never got to the IRS. Later, of course, the IRS came after the employees for their money as we are responsible to pay our taxes, even though there is no law that says so.
Oh yes, I could go on and point out indications that man is depraved, but that even a depraved man can do something good.
Decide for yourself. Is man totally depraved? I personally don't think so.
Point 2, Unconditional Election. Several years ago, I did a study on the words elect, chose, chosen, as they pertain to this doctrine. What I found is that those words pertain to Christ, to the apostles, and to the church. Never to anyone individually, except Christ.
The fact is we are chosen in Christ, and we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4 states, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." This verse makes it plain, those whom are chosen are chosen in Him, in Christ. Outside of Christ, no one is chosen. Therefore, we must then understand how someone is chosen in Christ, and that is where the conditions come in. Salvation is the process by which we are chosen in Christ.
Condition #1, believing. John 3.16, a familiar passage to most. But let's go a bit further and include verses 17 and 18. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through might be saved. He that believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name in the only begotten Son of God." There can be no doubt that according to these verses, believing is very definitely a condition for salvation. And you cannot be elect without being saved, and being in Christ.
Condition #2, repentance. Luke 13.3 & 5 say the same thing. "I tell you no, but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." Wel that's pretty well straight forward. No repentance, no salvation, you will perish.
Condition #3, confession. Romans 10:9 states. "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Confess with your mouth, and believe in your heart brings salvation. That's simple enough.
Some folks add water baptism as a condition of salvation. One thing for certain, salvation is not unconditional. And since salvation is of itself a condition of election, it's safe to say election is not unconditional.
Point 3, Limited Attonement. This is my favorite. Why? Because, it's the easiest to refute. Let me tell you, the five points are like dominoes. When one falls, they all do.
Keep in mind, these five points of Calvinism are all connected to their doctrine of particular election, and their doctrine of particular redemption. Without these five points, those two doctrines are gone. It's like, you tell a big lie. Then you have to create a bunch of little lies to support the big lie. And in this point of limited atomement, the lie is exposed.
Limited atonement is just that. Before the foundation of the world God the Father predetermined to send Christ in to the world at just the right time to become a sacrifice for the sins of a select few, called the elect.
Now the truth. In John 12.32, Jesus said, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL to Myself." Notice the word "ALL." This is my own translation. In the KJV, they add the word men in italics. If you have read the preface of the KJV, you know that words in italics are added words to clarify the text. Take the word out, and you have what the original states. You have the same in the NKJV. Without the added words, you might ask all what. But with the added words, you don't need to. In answer to the question, "All what?" Without the extra word we simply have to look at the text. What was Jesus talking about? So let's look at the text. John 12. 30-32. "Jesus answered and said, 'This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all world to Myself.'" You can see, I added the word world in italics. In the the text, Jesus is talking about the judgement of the world (kosmos). Then he refers to the manner in which He would die. If you're going to add a word, it should be a word in keeping with the text. So the message of Jesus here is, "If I be crucified, I will draw all the world to Myself." That sure doesn't sound like limited atonement to me. I realize there are some Calvinistic Greek scholars that would disagree with this definition. But the Greek word, pantos does not support the idea of any kind of limitation. According to the Greek books that I have, the word means, wholly, entirety, every.
Then there is I John 2.2, "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." Again, the Greek word, holos, translated "whole" shows absolutlely no limitation. I Timothy 4.3-6 teaches that God "desires all men to be saved," and that Jesus "gave Himself a ransom for all." That doesn't sound like only a select few. I believe it is safe to say that in no way does scripture teach limited atonement.
Point 4, Irresistable Grace. Since Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, with irresistable grace, everyone should be saved, since it is impossible to resist the grace of God. But, Galatians 5.4 states, "You have become eastranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace." Fallen from irresistable grace! How can that be? Those trying to be justified by the law are also estranged from Christ. Doesn't sound like irresistable grace to me. And, that leads to the next point.
Point 5, Perseverance of the Saints. This suggests that all saints, through God's unconditional love and irresistable grace, that all saints will be equipped to always persevere. If so, then why does scripture warn about an apostasy? You can't fall from something unless you are in it. In II Thessalonians 2, Paul wrote about the coming of the Lord, and wrote, "that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first..." Then there is the pronouncment by Paul that those who try to be justified by the Law, "you have fallen from grace." Saints falling from grace. This shows two things. God's grace is not irresistable even among the saints, and therefore, having fallen from grace, they are not able to pesevere.
There you have it. A discussion on the five points which are a part of a system of theology known as Calvinism.
PREDESTINATION
Certainly scripture teaches predestination. Where Calvinism and scripture part ways is what God's predestination is based on. Calvinism teaches that God loved his elect before the foundation of the world, and saved only those few. But that is not what scripture teaches.
For the truth we go to Romans 8.29 & 30, which states, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined. these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
Romans 8.29 plainly teaches that God's predestination is based on His foreknowledge. What does this word, "foreknew," mean? It is translated from the Greek, proginosko, which means, according to Vine, "to know before." It does not mean, "to love before," as Calvinists teach. If it did, the word would have to be, proagape, but as you can see, it's not.
Vine explains, "God's foreknowledge involves His electing grace, but does not preclude human will. He foreknows the exercise of faith which brings salvation."
Ephesians 1.5 & 11 further teaches that He "predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." "And it is in Christ, "in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."
So the doctrine of predestination properly is; according to the foreknowledge of God we are predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son, Jesus. Through predestination in Christ, we are called, we are justified, we are glorified, we are adopted as sons by Jesus Christ, through whom we obtain an inheritance, according to the pupose, good pleasure, and counsel of God's will.
A part of God's omniscience is His foreknowledge. God foreknows all things. Calvinism teaches that God foreknows all things because He has preplanned all things. However, I see no support for this in scripture.
Matthew 1:21: "...She will bear a son, and you shall call his name
Jesus, for he will SAVE HIS PEOPLE from their sins. '
Got that? " HIS PEOPLE", not everyone who ever lived."
Well, Sir James, I guess there is no point in going any further since salvation is just for the Jews. "His people" are Jews. He was born a Jew, He lived as a Jew, He was king of the Jews, and He died as a Jew. There was nothing at all gentile about Him. Since salvation is just for His people, the Jews, gentiles might as well give up.
Great post. Finally someone who reads their whole bible!
Blessings,
Leon"
Yes, great post. I am finally set free of this "Christianity." There is no way for a gentile to be saved since salvation is only for "His people," the Jews.
Oh Leon, are you a Jew?
By the way, speaking of reading the whole Bible, have you ever read where Joshua said, "Choose you this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." Why would he say those words, and why would God have those words recorded for all to see if it were not possible for anyone to make that choice?
By the way, God is not self-centered, or selfish. If he was he could have enjoyed his own life being completely alone. But he made us stupid and stiff-necked human beings. Why would He do that if he was self-centered. Oh, I forgot, he made us for his own good pleasure. So he made us to be his pets. Right? Something besides Himself to control, like puppets on a string, having absolutely no will of our own. God does it all. He alone decides who writes symphony. Why, he even decides when a murderer is to commit murder. Right? He decides what kind of toothpaste to buy. Right? If you say, "No," then where does God's choices end and ours begin?
Can we choose what toothpaste to buy? Can we choose when to commit murder? If the answer is,"Yes." Then why isn't God making those choices as well? If God is not making those choices for us, how can you say that makes the most important choice? So, we can choose to do bad, but we cannot choose to do good, yet you then say that "total depravity" doesn't mean that you can't do any good deed, like give someone a glass of water. So we can choose to do good, except when it comes to salvation. That choice can only be made by God. Why?
You Calvinists are running circles around each other. Why can't you simply accept what what the Bible teaches, and that is that God made a choice which enables all mankind to make a choice.
A while back, some quoted that salvation is "God's gracious choice." Did you ever look that phrase up in the Greek? the word "gracious" is translated from the Greek word, "charis," which means "gift." So, that phrase properly translated shoudl read, "God's gift of choice," or "God's giving choice." Whenever you see the phase, "God is gracious," it simply means, "God is giving."
Be careful, oh Calvinists, not to stumble over your own logic.
First of all you are assuming way too much. I think both doctrines are the utmost in stupidity. I believe what the Bible alone says, all of it. I do not blow off scriptures because they say something I don't like, I adjust my theology to match the whole bible, in context. I know context is hard for you so I will keep this simple.
Now, can you say for certain that there is no Jewish blood in your bloodline? You twisted the words of someone else to mean this, so can you be sure? Now for a little context and maybe it will actually make sense; Don't you think the bible might have been talking about God's children? Wow! It makes sense when it isn't twisted.
As for Joshua,who was he speaking to? Was it the whole world, or was it maybe the Isralites? You know, God's CHOSEN people. See, once again context is everything.
No, God is not self centered or selfish. We just don't understand Him from our human perspective. To us, the genocide of an entire people and their livestock would be horrible, but God ordered that more than once. Ask Ester what happened when it was ignored one time.
As for the rest of your rant, I will not bother. You either need medication or a serious lesson in theology.
As for the God's gracious choice comment, I believe it was a comment made by someone here on the forum. If so, why would you break it down into Greek. We speak English. As far as I know that is not a bible verse.
Th bible warns that everyone should not try to teach, there was a reason for that warning.
Leon why would you call someone ranting for believing the word of God, for those who believe we know that god does not violate his word and he is not a respecter of persons.
Don't you know sarcasm when you see it? I guess that takes a sense of humor, which I haven't seen much of. Laughter is a great medicine. You should try it sometime. Besides, I have not taken anything out of context, I merely responded to what others have taken out of context, and see, it makes no sense to you. It wasn't meant to make sense. It was meant to show how ridiculous it is to take Scripture out of context, which you must do to support Calvinism.
Yes Joshua was talking to the people of Israel. But, it does show that human beings can make that choice, unless you're going to claim that Jews weren't human.
As far as the quote of Romans 11.5, that was taken out of context by MoG. Romans 11 starts by talking about the remnant of Israel. It wasn't till after verse 5 Paul spoke of the gentiles.
By taking these Scriptures out of context, it appears that only the Jews have salvation. That's what some of the others have done, not I.
Since you called my sarcasm a "rant," I guess I should take it easy on those of that can't handle it. I thought it was funny, myself.
God only ordered the eradication of sinners after He has given them every chance to repent, and has shown that they are altogether unwilling to submit to Him. The bible does not record what God does for every people, but it does record it for some, and God does not change His methods. He gave Sodom and Gomorrah a chance. He gave Pharaoh 10 chances. He gave Nineveh a chance. All the peoples that were killed during Israel's time in the desert could see that the one true God was working with them. They always had a chance to turn away from their sin, and we don't know how many prophets and signs that God sent to them. His conduct has always been to be long suffering and offer a way out before He takes the step toward the judgment for sin. I do not believe God has ever just zapped someone or ordered their death without giving them fair warning and a chance to repent. The only one I can think of would be the guy that tried to catch the Ark of the Covenant. He did have warning though. Anyway....like I keep saying. God and Jesus have the same selfless character. I'm sorry for going off topic again. I just think this is a really important point. This whole mess over sin is all about God's character. Satan has made accusations that God is basically what some here are saying He is...a selfish tyrant that is repressing His created beings freedom. And I believe if we do not know who God is...then we will be like the pharisees. Neither knowing Jesus or God, and falling into unbelief when our "traditions" are questioned.
Matt. 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
We have to become like Christ. We must have a heart changing into the likeness of Jesus/God. We have to be building the same character, and if we believe God is selfish...then we're going to get to have Jesus say to us, "I never knew you". I do believe in predestination and election, but I do not believe we can know who is elect, and I do not believe God forces our election, before or after. There are too many examples of people that were following God that have fallen away. God elected the Jews, but they fell away and He cut them off. Balaam was in direct communication with God, a prophet of God, with the spiritual gift of prophecy. Is anyone here doing that? Aren't you saved? But Balaam fell away and was killed with the pagans. Judas was chosen by Jesus. Ananias and Sapphira must have had the Holy Spirit in order to lie to it. Adam and Eve were perfect. Satan was perfect. The angels that fell with Him were perfect. Anyway, I believe God spreads His grace/salvation/spirit to everyone. Only those who endure to the end will be saved. Sure, God knows who will make it, but does that mean He withholds His gifts from someone that truly believes in Him for a time? Maybe we have it backwards. Maybe we're not "saved" until we die. When the race is finished. Paul was pressing forward toward a goal that he had not achieved yet.
Phil. 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
17Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
2 Tim. 3:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Anyway...just a thought. We'll see. Lets all just keep listening for God's leading, and keep trying not to judge another Christian's walk. The reason these arguments come up is because we keep bringing up our points of belief and then basically say that anyone that has not reached those beliefs in their walk with Christ is going to hell. We don't know how God is working in someones life, and saying we do just cements both sides of the arguments in pride. So let's just say, "I believe you're wrong...but let's keep searching", instead of "you're a heretic". That might help inspire some humility in us.
Matthew 1:21: "...She will bear a son, and you shall call his name
Jesus, for he will SAVE HIS PEOPLE from their sins. '
Got that? " HIS PEOPLE", not everyone who ever lived."
Well, Sir James, I guess there is no point in going any further since salvation is just for the Jews. "His people" are Jews. He was born a Jew, He lived as a Jew, He was king of the Jews, and He died as a Jew. There was nothing at all gentile about Him. Since salvation is just for His people, the Jews, gentiles might as well give up.
James replies:
I am wondering why you would think that Matt.1:21 is referring ONLY to Jews? Your interpretation contradicts a LOT of other Scriptures. I mean if you demand that Matt. 1:21 means ONLY the Jews then what about the "all" verses and the "world" verses? Jesus even said that He had sheep of "another fold", and I could go on, but I think you understand.
Great post. And, I don't think you went off topic. At the core of this discussion is how God deals with sin. Yoiu have done a good job explaining one aspect of it. All the signs and wonders, the prophets, judges, etc., begging or pleading with his chosen people to come to repentence. I think you pointed that out rather nicely.
As I said, I too believe in predestination and the elect, but different than what Calvinists teach. Predestination based on forelnowledge, and elect through Christ, which is corporate election, not individual election.
